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Vosene
United Kingdom
4594 Posts
Status: offline |
 Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 22:01:13
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Flight leads in this Sunday's official campaign mission, "Singers High!" are requested to post a debrief of their flights actions, including any lessons learned or that should be learned by others.
Please put the following information at the top of your post:
Flight Role: (SEAD, ESCORT, STRIKE, Etc..)
Callsign11: "Pilot's name" AA=X AG=X RTB,MIA/KIA,EJT
Callsign12: "Pilot's name" AA=X AG=X RTB,MIA/KIA,EJT
Callsign13: "Pilot's name" AA=X AG=X RTB,MIA/KIA,EJT
Callsign14: "Pilot's name" AA=X AG=X RTB,MIA/KIA,EJT
Mission Outcome: MS,PS,MF
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vaughan
UNITED KINGDOM
245 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 22:45:56
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Flight Role: SEAD ESCORT
Lobo11: "Vaughan" AA=3 AG=2 RTB
Lobo12: "Elmo" AA=0 AG=0 MIA
Lobo13: "Floyd" AA=2 AG=2 RTB
Lobo14: "Crowebar" AA=0 AG=0 KIA
Mission Outcome: MF
On the way in, just before engaging our first SAMs, we got drawn into an engagement with a MiG21. Elmo had a tally on the bandit and got into a furball, but unfortunately the MiG was fired on by more than one aircraft, splashed, and Elmo was shot down by Floyd. I suspect that this could have been avoided if I had called the situation out on broadcast.
We continued to press the engagement. I destroyed the SA5 and an SA6. Floyd got an SA6 and an SA3. Crowebar was in hot on his first SA3, but got shot down by an SA2.
After that, we set up a CAP and got several MiG29s before RTB.
Lessons learned:
1. if you are not an A-A flight, hand off engagements to another flight if at all possible
2. don't merge on the same bandit as another flight
3. call all engagements, especially furballs |
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Dmans1
Greece
260 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 22:56:52
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BMS Debrief for Panther:
RECORD BEGIN TIMESTAMP 9/30/2013 00:01:04.
Game is Tactical Engagement type Networked
Mission name: Singers High!
Mission Type: Escort
Flight Unique Id: Panther1
4 Ship Flight
Ac type: F-16C-52
Contry: U.S.
FLIGHT EVENTS
Event wolfman joined as Panther12 at 17:24:04
Event Zipgun joined as Panther11 at 17:24:05
Event Dmans1 joined as Panther13 at 17:24:05
Event Homer joined as Panther14 at 17:24:06
Event SA5 launched at Zipgun 17:52:08
Event SA5 launched at Dmans1 17:53:03
Event SA2 launched at wolfman 18:00:13
Event SA2 launched at wolfman 18:00:15
Event DPRK MiG-21 MF/PFM downed by Homer at 18:00:31
Event Tbuc downed by Dmans1 at 18:00:59
Event SA2 launched at Zipgun 18:01:11
Event SA5 launched at Zipgun 18:04:24
Event SA2 launched at Zipgun 18:04:30
Event SA2 launched at Zipgun 18:04:34
Event Zipgun downed by DPRK SA-2 at 18:05:31
Event SA5 launched at wolfman 18:05:45
Event SA2 launched at Homer 18:08:47
Event SA5 launched at Homer 18:09:00
Event SA2 launched at Homer 18:09:01
Event SA2 launched at Homer 18:09:17
Event SA5 launched at Homer 18:09:28
Event Homer ejected at 18:09:35
Event Homer exited from Panther14 at 18:12:53
Event SA2 launched at Dmans1 18:16:48
Event DPRK MiG-23ML downed by wolfman at 18:16:48
Event DPRK MiG-23ML downed by Dmans1 at 18:17:29
Event SA2 launched at wolfman 18:17:38
Event SA2 launched at wolfman 18:17:56
Event DPRK MiG-23ML downed by Dmans1 at 18:20:05
Event SA2 launched at Dmans1 18:20:09
Event DPRK MiG-23ML downed by Dmans1 at 18:20:18
Event SA2 launched at wolfman 18:20:43
Event SA2 launched at wolfman 18:20:57
Event SA2 launched at wolfman 18:21:33
Event wolfman exited from Panther12 at 18:30:11
Event Dmans1 landed at 18:42:02
Event Dmans1 exited from Panther13 at 18:45:11
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PILOT SLOT 4:
Human Player: Capt. Homer
Callsign: Homer
Pilot status - RESCUED
Aircraft status - DESTROYED
AA Kills 1
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 5
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120B
Starting Load 5
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 2: AIM-9X
Starting Load 1
Fired 1
Missed 0
Hit 1
Event AIM-9X released at 18:00:18@72hit MiG-21 MF/PFM - destroyed
LOADOUT 3: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 4: ALQ-184
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
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PILOT SLOT 1:
Human Player: LtC. Zipgun
Callsign: Zipgun
Pilot status - KIA
Aircraft status - DESTROYED
AA Kills 0
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 5
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120B
Starting Load 5
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 2: AIM-9X
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 4: ALQ-184
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
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PILOT SLOT 2:
Human Player: 2Lt. wolfman
Callsign: wolfman
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 1
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 8
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120B
Starting Load 5
Fired 3
Missed 2
Hit 1
Event AIM-120B released at 18:15:54@72miss
Event AIM-120B released at 18:16:13@72hit MiG-23ML - destroyed
Event AIM-120B released at 18:19:49@72miss
LOADOUT 2: AIM-9X
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 4: ALQ-184
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
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PILOT SLOT 3:
Human Player: Capt. Dmans1
Callsign: Dmans1
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 3
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 3
Other Player Kills 1
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120B
Starting Load 5
Fired 4
Missed 0
Hit 4
Event AIM-120B released at 18:16:35@72hit MiG-23ML - damaged
Event AIM-120B released at 18:16:47@72hit MiG-23ML - destroyed
Event AIM-120B released at 18:19:11@72hit MiG-23ML - destroyed
Event AIM-120B released at 18:19:22@72hit MiG-23ML - destroyed
LOADOUT 2: AIM-9X
Starting Load 1
Fired 1
Missed 0
Hit 1
Event AIM-9X released at 18:00:29@72hit F-16C-52 - destroyed
LOADOUT 3: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 4: ALQ-184
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
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tiag
1417 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 09:05:58
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Flight Role: SEAD Strike
Fury11: "Tiag" AA=1 AG=0 KIA
Fury12: "Wildcard" AA=0 AG=0 RTB
Fury13: "Utopic" AA=2 AG=0 RTB
Fury14: "Jack" AA=0 AG=0 MIA
Mission Outcome: MF
Mission Briefing:
1) SAM systems to be attacked, in order of importance: SA-6, SA-3, SA-2 and SA-5. Too many SAMs to be destroyed, so we would be focusing on those denying a low ingress, i.e. SA-6 and SA-3.
2) Due to lot of friendlies, I explicitly mentioned to control the A-A engagements.
3) Plan was to engage the SA-6 tgt area with ARMs followed by a strike with AGMs. If the situation allows we would come in at medium altitude, otherwise would take the flight down and ingress at low altitude to avoid SA-3s and SA-6s on the south.
Mission Execution:
-Everything ran ok until we got at the outside the first SA-2 envelopes.
-We were spiked and engaged by the SA-5. Got naked after we went music on.
-Quick MIG-23s spike before it got shot down.
-Called Vaughan (SEAD escort) on Tactical to update on A-G picture two times, no answer.
-Saw A-A picture clear, and SA-3 at ingress out, then decided to take my flight to the deck.
- I broadcasted I would be ingressing low...Chalis repeated my call on tactical and asked for support from other flights.
-When already at the deck, got with no warning from AWACS/ESCORT flights, 4xMIG-21 spikes at 3-4 o'clock. Reacted instantaneously: MIG-21 has short range radar, so it must be close, I thought. #4 was killed by MIG-21 at close range (guns!). #3 and I turned and engaged them. We got 3 MIG-21s.
-Then the furball happened: Vaughan locke me up (SEAD ESCORT), Elmo (also SEAD ESCORT) also engaged the final -21. Escort flight (Zipgun, Wolfman and Wolfman) also attacked the single -21. When the 21 was finally down, we were naked on A-A and A-A and turned again to TGT. Some seconds later heard Dmans calling Fox-2 and I exploded.
-#3 and #2 had at that time one ARM in total, SA-3 got active close to tgt area, and our target, the SA-6 was moving south i.e. radar off.
-Due to the impossibility of finding the SA-6 in these circunstances, #3 aborted the mission and RTBed.
On my flight:
- Happy with execution of the mission by everyone.
- I prefer to hear more #3 than #2 when in combat.
- In the merge with the -21s , #2 said he lost SA. #3 got two MIGs. Good job, utopic!
- Congratulations to Wildcard for his baptism of fire in the 185th and RTB!
Important Lessons:
-Flights should not forget their roles: SEAD escort should support the strike flight (we, Fury), and not go air-to-air (just when under attack or requested...not the case yesterday!). Escort flight is not a sweep and should be with the strike force, supporting we (Fury) at close quarters, and not arriving later and merging with us and the MIGs.
-There are no excuses for blue-on-blue, especially if you shoot down the package leader. HE SHOULD BE ON YOUR DATALINK AS #5!!!! And Fury 13 should be #6 on your datalink!!!
-The whole situation yesterday could have been avoided if people look at their HSD and have the datalink properly assigned. Questions to addressed every minute by flight leads when flying the mission:
(i) Where is the main strike force?
(ii) Are they ingressing/under attack?
(iii) How should I support them?
(iv) Which kind of information they need? (SEAD:: active SAMs; Escort:: A-A threats.)
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Zipgun
USA
521 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 15:12:22
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Panther
Flight Role: ESCORT
Panther11: "Zipgun" AA=0 AG=0 KIA
Panther12: "Wolfman" AA=1 AG=0 RTB
Panther13: "Dmans1" AA=3 AG=0 RTB (1 friendly)
Panther14: "Homer" AA=0 AG=0 MIA
Mission Outcome: PS
Zipgun and Homer lost to SAMs (kind of ironic for Homer). SA was a challenge due to saturated comms, active SAMs, and jamming contacts.
Flight was briefed to hold Fury flight in IDM (1&3 hold 11/13 2&4 hold 12/14), so the fratricide incident shocks me. ACMI shows #3 targeting Fury12, with the 9x making beam-turn to impact Fury11. Python was our IDM slots 7&8 to assist in setting up multi-flight CAP/Grider. I doubt that Pather13 not having Fury12 in IDM contributed significantly to the incident.
In retrospect, IMHO, either Panther should have split elements sending 3&4 low to "ride shotgun" with Fury; or we should have split high/low with Python (due to the cloud deck). The ACMI shows Fury going A-A defensive during their A-G run. It's possible that, if Panther or Python were in low proximity, they could have engaged the Migs and Fury could have turned cold until delousing was complete. Given that we had 3 different flights smelling blood on the old Migs, the situation was ripe for fratricide. I imagine that the AWACS 2D view showed a blob of red and blue icons, with updates too delayed to be tactically useful. Additionally, 2D would not show the accurate locations, as most elements engaged in this fight were detached from their leads.
My conclusion: the escorts could have benefited from a co-brief by an A-A sub-package CMDR, where kill-box responsibilities and engagement rules were shared. In the common brief, air-mud units should have been briefed to stay AA weapons hold, unless defensive, and egress to lessen the target density and reduce the risk of SAM losses.
Just my couple of pennies worth. |
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utopic
ROMANIA
577 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 16:01:22
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I just want to add that my decision to engage in AA was more of a defensive reaction than anyting else. I had nails 21 on my rwr and looking out the window  I had tally on a 2ship over an airport.
I continued on my flightplan for a few more seconds, noticed they were getting bigger and decided that continuing fw would put the migs behind my 3/9 line. So made the call break right, switched to dogfight mode, and took both of them out, even though the last shot was taken at RMin.
I had no tally of other fighters so I turned to bug out towards the last known safe direction: West.
I believe #1 was coming to assist when he got shot. During the bugout #4 fell a little behind and got shot with guns by the last surviving mig.
Looking back, I should have called the merge with the migs, and the fact that the comms were rather busy is not an excuse.
Another learning point is that I should be looking over my shoulder when having 21 nails.
I would really like to hear from Homer how he thinks the mission went and how it should have went. :) |
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Floyd
Germany
1357 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 17:50:30
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A look at the A2A scores show why this mission was a complete failure.
Strike and SEAD scored 8 A2A as did the Escort and BARCAP, 4 of these
in the aftershow with MiG-23. The flight plans were screwed up with SEAD
going low with full load, hunting MiG-21s and the Strike pressing the attack with
no Escort in front.
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Homer
United Kingdom
1082 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 02 Oct 2013 : 10:02:49
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When I created the mission, I envisioned the Strike flight to make a 135 degrees attack run on the red line using stand-off or tossed CBU for the brave. SEAD Escort were to take out the four SAM sites ringed in yellow, other F16 flights were tasked to take out the two northern SA5 in blue.
Personally, I thought the flight was a complete cluster****, to borrow a phrase. When the brown hit the fan and the bullets started flying, the ages old CPL mentality seems to kick in where everyone wants to score a couple extra points rather than stick to their briefed task.
Now I don't want to seem harsh or offend anyone, but...
I believe we in the 185th do not have the pilots to fly these large co-ordinated strikes nowadays. Please don't get me wrong - we have many excellent and very capable pilots, but only when offline in a single player environment, where the AI can pretty much take care of itself. In the multiplayer environment, we have very few pilots capable of competently leading a flight of four, and even fewer capable of flying package commander. All to often we have flight leads who cannot fly straight and level at a constant speed, never mind update their flight on speed/altitude/heading intentions, expecting the flight to telepathically know his intentions. Perhaps worse we have many pilots who are incapable of flying formation on a steady lead.
Recently I had the pleasure to fly #2 with Utopic as lead. It was a joy because he never left me in any doubt as to his intended parameters, always managed to hold a steady flight plan, and when it came to engagement he issued his instructions clear and concise, I executed his intention. It was a joy to fly that night.
I single out Utopic because this was recent and immediately comes to mind, but there are others. Few admittedly, but they are there. I know I am incapable of doing this, but am happy to fly 2 or 4 all the same. Again recently I guested with the Blue flight - Tiag led the brief and it was completely and utterly different to what I had become used to with the Green flight, it was a totally different experience again, and should be shared throughout the squad.
Basically, what I am trying to say is this: BMS4.32 demands a level of human co-operation at a level where I think we are nowhere near, and unless we are all prepared to start again at the very basics, i.e. formation flight, radio use, avionics, all the flying stuff, we may as well forget about the fighting stuff because we will never win, and will be left frustrated when trying to fly the harder missions such as this. We are not flying AF any more where our deficiencies were masked to a fair extent. Ask yourself immediately if you can set up and more important use the tools given to us - data-linking, AA TACAN, IDM target handoff, etc. All these things are to make our job in fighting with an F16 easier, but I bet there is a fair percentage of 185th pilots who haven't a clue how to use this stuff, me included! AA TACAN I only learned about two weeks ago! How bad is that!?
Now I know we do this for fun and only for a couple hours per week on a Sunday night, but can't we look to make it two nights a week where we can practice all the dull boring stuff? It will pay off massively to our combined levels of enjoyment in the long run.
Finally, please remember this is intended to disrespect no-one - it is my honest assessment of where I think we are at today.  |
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utopic
ROMANIA
577 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 02 Oct 2013 : 11:16:54
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Homer, you made me blush.
Thanks for the insight, if I were you, I wouldn't have exposed the right solution, I would have just said if we were close or not. :D
Just one last question for you: could going East, feet wet, around the SAMs have worked? I know a certain carrier group was mentioned but was invisible... |
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Homer
United Kingdom
1082 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 02 Oct 2013 : 11:32:10
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| Carrier was at 17:00hrs 50 miles at 77 degrees from Wonsan - looking at the SA10 ring you would have been inside the threat zone, but I think if the coast was hugged you might just get away with it. Carrier group usually engages at 40 miles give or take? |
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Sabre
United Kingdom
2106 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 02 Oct 2013 : 18:59:33
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Python
Flight Role: BARCAP
Python11: "Sabre" AA=1 AG=0 RTB
Panther13: "Skal" AA=2 AG=0 MIA
Mission Outcome: PS
Mission Type: BARCAP
Flight Unique Id: Python1
4 Ship Flight
Ac type: F-16C-52
Contry: U.S.
FLIGHT EVENTS
Event Skal joined as Python13 at 17:20:04
Event Sabre joined as Python11 at 17:20:04
Event DPRK MiG-21 MF/PFM downed by Python14 at 17:43:21
Event U.S. A-10 downed by Python12 at 17:43:26
Event DPRK MiG-21 MF/PFM downed by Python12 at 17:44:11
Event SA5 launched at Skal 17:45:43
Event DPRK MiG-23ML downed by Python14 at 17:46:40
Event SA5 launched at Sabre 17:47:48
Event DPRK MiG-21 MF/PFM downed by Python14 at 17:51:38
Event AA-10A launched at Skal 17:55:58
Event AA-10A launched at Skal 17:56:38
Event DPRK MiG-29A downed by Skal at 17:57:02
Event DPRK MiG-29A downed by Skal at 17:57:15
Event DPRK MiG-29A downed by Sabre at 17:57:33
Event DPRK MiG-29A downed by Python14 at 17:58:36
Event SA5 launched at Skal 18:08:51
Event AA-10A launched at Skal 18:08:52
Event SA5 launched at Sabre 18:09:09
Event Skal ejected at 18:09:42
Event Skal exited from Python13 at 18:10:23
Event SA2 launched at Sabre 18:10:38
Event DPRK MiG-29A downed by Python14 at 18:12:32
Event Sabre landed at 18:40:58
Event Sabre exited from Python11 at 18:45:18
Took off, proceeded to our station, passed en route at low level by Lobo flight. Notified by AWACS of Migs engaging A-10's despatched AI first, they shot down one friendly A-10 and 2 Migs. Turned into a bit of a frenzy down there so we backed off because we unable to distinguish friendlies from foes.
Directed to engage group of Mig 29A's to the Northwest, attempted a four on four shoot with the AI, got 4 Migs 2 by Skal.
Dropped tanks and were directed to engage next group of Mig 29A's, Skal was shot down here. Sabre attempted to engage but forgot to clear the S_J screen, hence no weapon launch Doh!!! Python 14 the AI with the mostest got another kill.
Sabre RTB.
Sabre was here |
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| 185th VFS |
© 2000-2018 185th VFS |
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Sunday 29th September - Singers High!
