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Griffin
UNITED KINGDOM
5033 Posts
Status: offline |
 Posted - 07 Apr 2013 : 22:26:31
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Flight leads in this Sunday's mission, "Gortoz a ran" are requested to post a debrief of their flights actions, including any lessons learned or that should be learned by others.
Please put the following information at the top of your post:
Flight Role: (SEAD, ESCORT, STRIKE, Etc..)
Callsign11: "Pilot's name" AA=X AG=X RTB,MIA/KIA,EJT
Callsign12: "Pilot's name" AA=X AG=X RTB,MIA/KIA,EJT
Callsign13: "Pilot's name" AA=X AG=X RTB,MIA/KIA,EJT
Callsign14: "Pilot's name" AA=X AG=X RTB,MIA/KIA,EJT
Mission Outcome: MS,PS,MF
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Joif
UNITED KINGDOM
320 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 08 Apr 2013 : 19:43:50
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Flight Role: TASMO
Fury11: "Joif" AA=0 AG=2 KIA
Fury12: "Ghostrider" AA=0 AG=0 EJT
Fury13: "Jack" AA=0 AG=0 EJT
Fury14: "Dmans" AA=0 AG=2 RTB
Mission Outcome: MF
Our plan in brief was to hold back until given the all clear and then deliver our LGB's from high altitude, we were also hoping that at least some of the target ships had a radar so we could disable them from range using harms if need be.
We took off behind schedule as a flight ahead of us were having some issues, we cruised to target area at angels 30 to conserve fuel as we could potentially be loitering for some time, upon approaching target it was established that none of the destroyers had a radar signature for the HAD pod. As we arrived within 40 miles of the island the hawk system and SA-11's were still active so I directed the flight to turn to heading 300.. but 2 continued heading straight to target and was destroyed by the Hawk system this immediately made our MS very unlikely, in future please be more aware of the other flight members location/heading and don't hesitate to ask if you couldn't hear a lead call this was an easily avoidable death.
We continued to orbit west of the target whilst kept our eyes glued to the RWR as MiG's were in the area but being dealt with by the other flights, we performed around 4 orbits before all other sead flights declared they had no ordnance.
Dmans engaged the Hawk system successfully with a harm whilst I disabled two SA-13's still active at the target.
After this we were running in on the ships and an act of god turned our perfect LGB dropping weather into the perfect storm and TGP visual was not possible unless we came under cloud cover which was less than 10,000ft exposing us to all sorts of nasties. We proceeded on despite this to drop our LGB's on the two Ulsans to the west, looking over the acmi one of the ulsan ships was only damaged after absorbing two bombs and was only fully destroyed after I finished it off with gun runs, this kill was not picked up as "my" kill in the debrief however :(
As we continued to the north side to locate the other ships we lost Jack with his LGB's still on the rail so at this point we did not have enough ordnance to achieve a success.
Trying to make the best of a bad situation I attempted to locate the osa 2 patrol boats as these should have been small enough to destroy with our guns, once located one has half way up a mountain on the island and the other just on the shore, these were covered by a large amphibious tank battalion and when I got close the entire sky lit up with small arms and IR launched missiles so these weren't reachable safely without LGB's. I advised the other flights with LGB's they are free engage these boats as our flight would not be able to.
Myself and Dmans carried on searching for the remaining 2 ships eventually picked them up around 20 miles out at sea heading away from the island, due to the fog I only got visual within several miles to confirm they were enemy and not friendly and then another act of god created a huge tidal wave appeared as I was in on a gun run but it was too high for me to escape it, here's my hud tape just before impact to prove it..
Dmans went on to engage the remaining ships but I don't believe any further kills were achieved (correct me if I'm wrong)
as a general note this mission was good, entertaining and challenging but had the potential to be epic, there was a few things worth noting.. not sure if it was intentional but our JSTAR's got smashed by an SA-10 2 minutes into the mission.. our flight was tasked with destroying 6 ships or mission failure, the destroyers needed 2 bombs minimum to destroy so even a perfect run we would have only destroyed 4, also the pre-planned CAS flight were tasked with destroying ALL ground units or mission failure but they were given AGM-154C's these are different to the cluster variants A/B as they will only destroy 1 unit for each JSOW so I think destroying all targets was impossible even from the get-go (understandable mistake I have done this myself).
Utopic I look forward to your thoughts on how this panned out as it was obviously quite a complex mission from an editors point of view.
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Elmo
UNITED KINGDOM
238 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 08 Apr 2013 : 20:26:01
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Flight Role: SEAD
Cowboy11: "Elmo" AA=2 AG=0 RTB
Cowboy12: "Doof" AA=1 AG=1 RTB
Cowboy13: "Floyd" AA=0 AG=2 RTB
Cowboy14: "Griffin" AA=2 AG=3 RTB
Mission Outcome: MF
Took off and climbed to angels 27, at target I shot at Hawk and Doof at SA11 and both our missiles missed. Then Floyd and Griffin took shots at SA11 with Floyd destroying one and Griffin missing. I then fired another shot at the Hawk which missed again and doof fired at SA11 and destroyed one. Floyd and Griffin then fired their last harms and they both got hits. I called to other SEAD flight that we were out of harms and they took over to engage remaining SAM threats. At this point we were called to help Falcon1 with a 4 ship of Mig-29's, between Falcon flight and Cowboy flight we shot down a couple of them and the others bugged out. We then got a 4 ship of SU-27s at angels 1 which Doof and I engaged and then Floyd and Griffin and I think we scored 3 kills between us. Got a bit scrappy in there as I think the comms regarding who was engaging them got a bit lost, I know I forgot to use UHF to call that I was in hot on them.
After that we loitered out to the West until about 06.05 and then decided we would try and engage with our remaining LGB's due to the other flights losing members, I dropped 2 LGBs at a boat and think they dropped short and Griffin got a couple of kills on a AAA battalion, at this point we were all low on fuel so decided to RTB.
Good mission, think we may of got a bit screwed over with the harms missing their targets, not sure if it was possibly one of the multiplayer style bugs that you sometimes see with mavericks or what??? I was defiantly getting spiked by SA11 and hawk and entering their threat circles on purpose to give the missile an emitting radar to lock onto so not sure why they had such trouble hitting their target.
It was a good use of the weather as well, maybe came in a little too quickly for us but its not supposed to be easy so made it a real challenge.
Elmo |
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utopic
ROMANIA
577 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 09 Apr 2013 : 15:16:51
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I enjoyed the detailed debrief from you guys.
Even if I'm not in front of my pc and this was a mission I built quite a while ago, I'll try to answer Joif's questions and offer my own questions and feedback.
While testing, I don't remember the harms missing much, don't know why this happens, perhaps it's a random factor included in BMS as to when are the SAMs emitting, or something else, I don't know.
The JSTARS flight was not supposed to get shut down, but during mission design I added it only to help with initial mission planning, so from my point of view, this shouldn't have mattered. Once you're in the pit, does it help you in any way?
Also, Joif, I remember you asked about the victory condition for the TASMO flight, and I know I responded they had to be 100% kaput, but afterwards I checked the Victory Conditions tab and noticed I had set it to something less, can't remember what percentage.
Overall, my intention for this mission was to force the flights to communicate & cooperate, as individual action for each flight wouldn't have been enough for a MS/PS. I was glad to see that happened to a good extent. :) Also, design wise, I felt that amongst all ships, there were enough munitions to complete the mission - the moment aircraft started dropping like flies, chances also started dropping logarithmically.
I'm curious if anyone has recently used a chaff/flare program when dropping CBUs, gunning tanks, ships or whatnot?
Also, when making bombing runs (I think this only applies to CCIP) I think we should line up with the column and try to drop all bombs in one run. I tried to do this after being out of HARMS, while dropping c&f, but on the egress a missile caught up with me. Maybe I would have survived if I had used burner - being low on fuel, I decided against it...
All in all, I wasn't satisfied with my personal performance in the mission, mostly because I kept falling behind lead.   
Joif, about radio transmission acknowledgements (phew, what a long word), do you know what the real life procedure is?
Also, with the risk of highjacking the thread, what is the recipe for optimal fuel consumption? I know higher=better, but at really high altitudes you also need more throttle to maintain the same speed and more throttle = more fuel. Is for example angels 35 >>>> angels 25?
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Floyd
Germany
1357 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 09 Apr 2013 : 15:56:20
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Click ICP 5 till you see the 'opt alt' display.
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Joif
UNITED KINGDOM
320 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 09 Apr 2013 : 17:16:22
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Answers below in Red
Originally posted by utopic
I enjoyed the detailed debrief from you guys.
Even if I'm not in front of my pc and this was a mission I built quite a while ago, I'll try to answer Joif's questions and offer my own questions and feedback.
While testing, I don't remember the harms missing much, don't know why this happens, perhaps it's a random factor included in BMS as to when are the SAMs emitting, or something else, I don't know.
From what I observed in the acmi alot of the HARMS had a hard time hitting the targets as they were still at altitude when they got to the SAM sites so they had to make a very aggressive dive unto target often resulting in a miss. I have seen this happen alot when the SAM sites are close to the launch aircraft, if you observe a harm on external view after launch they usually pitch up 2-5 degree's and cruise ballistically for awhile until they can see the emitting target radar and then start to maneuver unto target so this 5 degree climb plus any loft from the launching aircraft can sometimes see the missile climb way too high to maneuver to target.
When performing close range launches with harms we need to practing pointing the nose of our aircraft right at the radar or possibly experiment with aiming the aircraft a few degree's under the target so this natural rise actually puts the missile heading right for target?
The JSTARS flight was not supposed to get shut down, but during mission design I added it only to help with initial mission planning, so from my point of view, this shouldn't have mattered. Once you're in the pit, does it help you in any way?
Someone else would have to confirm for me here but I'm not sure if JSTARS has the ability to detect airborne targets in falcon? If so then this would have been useful for our human awacs we had on the night so the intercepts on the migs/su's be more co-ordinated.. in RL I'm certain its only used for ground battlefield control and awacs used for air control so like you say it probably wouldn't have made much difference in pit but Falcon sometimes over models some things.
Also, Joif, I remember you asked about the victory condition for the TASMO flight, and I know I responded they had to be 100% kaput, but afterwards I checked the Victory Conditions tab and noticed I had set it to something less, can't remember what percentage.
Overall, my intention for this mission was to force the flights to communicate & cooperate, as individual action for each flight wouldn't have been enough for a MS/PS. I was glad to see that happened to a good extent. :) Also, design wise, I felt that amongst all ships, there were enough munitions to complete the mission - the moment aircraft started dropping like flies, chances also started dropping logarithmically.
I understand that reasoning, every one makes missions differently with different MS critera which add's to the diversity and enjoyment of the mission but I usually allow for the mission to be accomplished with 3 human aircraft per flight and a partial is usually accomplishable with 2 human aircraft.. after all not all weapons hit their mark 100% of the time and there is other factors to consider such as a low turnout of pilots or pilots lost due to a technical issues etc.
This is not squadron SOP just my personal preference, if we were flying for full realism we should have aborted after we lost our first aircraft as a MS would be near impossible and we only stood to lose more aircraft but we usually continue with the mission to an extent so we dont spoil the fun for the other pilots who may only get to fly once a week and probably dont want a good mission cut extremely short.. that's just one example of how PS/MS criteria could have drastically affected the flight
My opinion only, command can advise on the squadrons official standpoint if necessary
I'm curious if anyone has recently used a chaff/flare program when dropping CBUs, gunning tanks, ships or whatnot?
I believe as part of the training package its generally advised to be running a chaff/flare program of some sort when your doing any of the above and the occasional jink to counter AAA or man pads
Also, when making bombing runs (I think this only applies to CCIP) I think we should line up with the column and try to drop all bombs in one run. I tried to do this after being out of HARMS, while dropping c&f, but on the egress a missile caught up with me. Maybe I would have survived if I had used burner - being low on fuel, I decided against it...
I agree, when taking out a large convoy I have found the most effective way is lining yourself up with the TGP and then CCRP ripple CBU's with 400-500ft spacing, if your line up is good you can cause a mile of complete destruction and be off target in one pass.
All in all, I wasn't satisfied with my personal performance in the mission, mostly because I kept falling behind lead.
Joif, about radio transmission acknowledgements (phew, what a long word), do you know what the real life procedure is?
Not sure what the real life procedure is sorry, generally our documents state lead calls, flight respond with their number and then the action is carried out.
Also, with the risk of highjacking the thread, what is the recipe for optimal fuel consumption? I know higher=better, but at really high altitudes you also need more throttle to maintain the same speed and more throttle = more fuel. Is for example angels 35 >>>> angels 25?
I'm not the best person to ask into the theory of it, but at angels 40 go full burn and keep an eye on your fuel flow gauge and do the same at sea level you'll notice the fuel flow is much higher at at low altitude.
You mention more throttle=more fuel but thats not always the case as the air is thinner at high altitude I believe the engine cannot produce as much power as its receiving less air and therefore matches the fuel flow to correctly balance the amount of air its recieving, just because your using more throttle doesnt necessarily mean your using more fuel.
Even though the engine isn't producing as much force at high level there is much less air resistance to counter balance it so you can actually cruise easier even though it feels as if your stalling and you can even get upto speeds of Mach 1.8ish if you have a clean loadout and burn.. same rule applies you dont necessarily need more throttle to achieve the same speeds at different heights.. note the mach number at higher altitudes as the thinner air density your CAS wont be giving you an exact reading of your speed in terms of how fast your moving from point A to point B but more of a reading of the airflow over the aircraft so at high altitude your a point to point speed indication your better off reverting to TAS or the mach number.
CAS is still important as your stall speed at sea level is the same stall speed at A40 irregardless that your aircraft is actually travelling much faster, all to do with the air density changing how much air is flowing over the wings creating lift so essentially less air density = less lift, less air density = less air resistance (could be very wrong).
One of the squadron theory beasts will be able to clear up the theory more.. but thats my basic understanding if it makes sense.
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utopic
ROMANIA
577 Posts
Status: offline |
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Elmo
UNITED KINGDOM
238 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 09 Apr 2013 : 21:32:20
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Kind of responding to some of the comments above, I may be wrong though.
HARMS - as far as I know they are supposed to shoot up and gain altitude when launched as it helps to increase their range. They don't guide like a maverick as such, the seeker head is trying to pick up radar signature which I don't think goes active on the missile straight away, so even if you give it a target to aim at all you are doing is telling the HARM that their is a certain radar type to scan for at a certain location, the seeker on the HARM goes active once it gets closer looking for that particular radar and then homes in on those co-ordindates. Also another thing is they might not actually be modeled correctly on this game???
JSTAR - Pretty sure this is only used for ground vehicles in this game.
Comms - I thought the comms seemed pretty good overall but I do not really understand why the TASMO and CAS flights got so close that they were getting shot down before we had called the area clear.
Chaff/Flare Programme - everybody should have one of their programmes set up ready for when you are doing low level attacks and if you dont it should be something you are doing in the mission planning when you know you are doing a low level attack. I think mine takes about 10 seconds to complete the whole programme so if you start it off as you get close to target it should be plenty of time to drop weapons and then turn out of there. You should also avoid using afterburner if possible on egress to reduce your heat signature for IR missiles to aim at rather than your flares.
Bombing runs - This is something that should be set up by flight leads in the planning, if you do a recon of a convoy and you know they are running East West then move the IP steerpoint to a location so you come in from the correct direction.
Comms - Real life is not the same because they can use hand signals which we can not so we have to use the radio more often so that everybody knows what is going on but generally if it is a descriptive call such as asking for weapon state you respond, if it is just an informative call such as fight lead telling you how fast they are going you dont have to but it helps the flight lead to know that you heard the call. 185th Comms procedure http://www.185th.co.uk/files/SOPs/SOP%206%20-%20185th%20Comms%20Procedures%20and%20Brevity/SOP%206-185th%20Comm1-0.pdf
Fuel consumption and flight speed - Floyd answered this one with the ICP button 5 which gives you your optimum altitude and speed to conserve fuel. Once you are on that page if you press ICP button 0 it should highlight the top of the DED and then it will give you the carets on your hud showing the altitude and speed. Joif is also correct in what he is saying, I think in real life once you are above 0.8 mach then speed is always called out in mach number, it could have something to do with altitude as well cant quite remember.
Hope some of that helps.
Elmo |
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Vosene
United Kingdom
4594 Posts
Status: offline |
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Dmans1
Greece
260 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 10 Apr 2013 : 07:53:24
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My comments about the mission:
Tough MS criteria,TASMO criteria achievable, if cards are played right. Loads of Harms/LGB's in total, more than enough to take out ships/SAM sites. Re-reading the briefing though i think that the criteria for the SEAD/CAS flight were a bit vague.A very nice mission overall.
Having flown in a more "relaxed" role in my last 2 missions (that is #4 in a strike flight when i usually lead A/A flights) i keep noticing that engagements and shots are not broadcasted. These things are not radio chatter and should always be broadcasted, lets everyone know who's engaging what. Builds up SA for everyone.
As far as the fuel efficiency is concerned, higher is better. Go as high as you can/ are permitted up to the service ceiling. My rule of thumb, set cruise speed around .85-.90 and keep climbing until the distinct sound of the hi aa airflow when flying straight is heard. That's where i level off.
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Crowebar
UNITED KINGDOM
1473 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 10 Apr 2013 : 15:55:54
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In answer to the bombing run question.....
Using FCR to find the contact, leave the cursor over the contact a couple of seconds and the contact will deaggregate (expand) on the screen. If it is a convoy it will show as a line. make a note of the lay direction, i.e. North/South, East/West etc and then mavouvre the aircraft to attack along this line. When attacking you should dispense flares, or chaff and flares depending on threat. Personally I have CMS forward for chaff, CMS left for flares, and a keyboard key setup as the slap switch (chaff & flares).
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Vosene
United Kingdom
4594 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 10 Apr 2013 : 16:32:05
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To expand on Crowebar's post, if you set a mark point on the enemy column and select it as your waypoint you can set the desired radial on the HSI to line yourself up with the column for an attack.
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Crowebar
UNITED KINGDOM
1473 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 11 Apr 2013 : 10:46:26
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Flight Role: SEAD
Falcon11: "Crowebar" AA=1 AG=1 KIA
Falcon12: "Oly" AA=0 AG=2 RTB
Falcon13: "Blade" AA=0 AG=1 RTB
Falcon14: "Utopic" AA=0 AG=6 RTB
Mission Outcome: MF
On arrival at target area we orbited in a position North West of target area as planned while Cowboy attacked SA-11's. Once Cowboy expended all their HARMs we were asked to continue attack on SA-11's. 1 & 2 made first attack while 3 & 4 remained heads up in orbit. 1 & 2 were then cold heading West, with 3 & 4 HOT when 2 called a 4 ship Mig-29 contact approaching from the West.
1 & 2 engaged with a single volley, while 1 requested Cowboy flight engage the mig-29s as Falcon flight carried the valuable HARMs. I also thought at this time that Cowboy were cat1 and so were better positioned to engage. This turned out to be incorrect. However it was probably best that they engaged, as they did, while Falcon continued to attack SA-11's with HARMs.
SA-13's were popping up at this time also, and were being engaged. Once the SA-11's were all killed 1 broadcast to all other flights that this was so.
Falcon then commenced a series of runs on target area. Lots of ground targets and threats. The FCR showed contacts at steerpoint 4, the location of our primary target - AAA in mission planning. So I advised flight to attack using CCRP guidance to steerpoint 4, where there were some targets, hopefully AAA.
During these attack runs we encountered plenty of SAMs and AAA so quite an adrenaline rush. Unfortunately Utopic was lost to a SAM during an attack run as he describes above.
I came off first pass "Bingo", but decided to make a second pass before RTB. I paid the price, falling approx. 3 miles short of the runway.
#2 received heavy damage during the attack, but was able to nurse his sick bird back to base for a safe landing.
#4 received no damage and returned to base with #2
Very good mission thanks Utopic.
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Sunday 7th April - Gortoz a ran
