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Griffin
UNITED KINGDOM
5033 Posts
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 Posted - 24 Mar 2013 : 21:50:26
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Flight leads in this Sunday's mission, "Operation Homeland Saviour" are requested to post a debrief of their flights actions, including any lessons learned or that should be learned by others.
Please put the following information at the top of your post:
Flight Role: (SEAD, ESCORT, STRIKE, Etc..)
Callsign11: "Pilot's name" AA=X AG=X RTB,MIA/KIA,EJT
Callsign12: "Pilot's name" AA=X AG=X RTB,MIA/KIA,EJT
Callsign13: "Pilot's name" AA=X AG=X RTB,MIA/KIA,EJT
Callsign14: "Pilot's name" AA=X AG=X RTB,MIA/KIA,EJT
Mission Outcome: MS,PS,MF
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vaughan
UNITED KINGDOM
245 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 24 Mar 2013 : 22:06:13
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Flight Role: SEAD
Falcon11: "Vaughan" AA=1 AG=1 RTB
Falcon12: "Floyd" AA=0 AG=2 RTB
Falcon13: "Griffin" AA=1 AG=0 RTB
Falcon14: "AI" AA=X AG=X RTB
Mission Outcome: MS
Floyd and I destroyed the 3 SA-3 sites after STP 2 with Griffin accounting for the SA-5 and SA-2 north of STP 3. We then set up a CAP between STP 3 and STP 4, while Griffin ordered the AI to attack the SA-2 west and the SA-4 north of STP 4.
On egress, a 2-ship of MiG21s popped up from the airbase near STP 2. Griffin shot down one and I got the other.
RTB was relatively uneventful with the sole exception of a rogue SA-3 which popped up when we were 10nm from home plate. |
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Elmo
UNITED KINGDOM
238 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 24 Mar 2013 : 23:29:08
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Flight Role: STRIKE
Cowboy11: "Elmo" AA=0 AG=1 RTB
Cowboy12: "Joif" AA=0 AG=0 RTB
Cowboy13: "Novac" AA=0 AG=1 RTB
Cowboy14: "Jack" AA=0 AG=0 RTB
Mission Outcome: MS
Took off and flew pre-planned flight route skirting around AAA. Got an SA3 spike close to STP3 so went around that and then went low level for our attack runs in. All dropped bombs on target although it did not show that Jack dropped his bombs, not sure what was going on there. Then head home without event other than SA3 pop up close to home plate but was not really a factor.
Good fun mission which I think we all worked well together to achieve a success, we got a few spikes from SAM's but nothing launched at us so was good.
Elmo |
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Doof
IRELAND
70 Posts
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Posted - 25 Mar 2013 : 15:35:42
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Flight Role: Sead Escort
Mongo11: "Doof" AA=0 AG=2 RTB
Mongo12: "Vosene" AA=0 AG=0 RTB
Mongo13: "Ghostrider" AA=0 AG=2 RTB
Mongo14: "AI Bloke" AA=0 AG=1 RTB
Mission Outcome: MS
Took off, Smashed up to A26.5 for extra HARM range. Fairly relaxing flight in with some AAA spikes and Sa-2's that were a good way off to the west on the HAD. Mongo 14 (AI Bloke) engaged and smashed an SA-3 radar that was probably about to cause some problems for Fury flight.
Around steerpoint 4 I called a new westerly heading for the flight so we could go in and wake up our target SAM sites. this worked very well if the inbound missiles on me are any indication. Sa-2 and 5 launched on me so I went for the deck to avoid them. With them thrashed I engaged 2x Fan-Song B radars that were around the strikes target areas. Both smashed. By this time Vosene had to RTB because of control issues :(.
I then went air cover and had element two, lead by Ghostrider head toward SP 5, to take out any sam threats that pop up in the area. At around 04:37 he went defensive on Sa-5 and Sa-2 launches on his element from the north and west, he took out the Sa-2 while smashing his defensive maneuvers, good show there. by this time the strike package had called RTB so I ordered flight to regroup at steerpoint 4, and we would make our way back home. Ghostrider took out a second Sa-2 shortly after as it was causing me some problems.
Went home, some air threats called, but nothing near my flight, Ghostrider had an Sa-4 launch at hom but he avoided them and adjusted his heading easterly to avoid any more. Sa-3 locked me between SP 1 and 2 on the way back to homeplate, had nothing on my HAD so ignored it for the most part, Landed behind another flight, Ghostrider came in just behind me. After much chat about the lovely layout of Kimpo International, we shut it down and quit out.
Gwd mission by Joifage, don't tell him that.
Doofrage |
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Joif
UNITED KINGDOM
320 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 11:09:20
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I designed (I say designed I actually sneezed on the monitor then placed SAM threats every where there was fluids on the screen) this mission with the intent of showing that early SAM threats have a much bigger bark than they're bite. I think this was largely proved as no-one was lost due to SAM's despite several hundred SAM launches. I knew as soon as people turned on the AD threats they would over evaluate the situation and question if the mission was even possible..
I wanted to stress that these early SAM's have obvious flaws we can exploit so easily that the majority of the SAM's were actually no factor. The main threat of this TE were SA-3's as they're missiles are relatively maneuverable and difficult to outrun and also the odd AAA sites, the least of a threat was the SA-5's which I see as ballistic missile launchers that happened to have parked next to a radar they pose little threat and the rest of the SAM's could have been avoided by other means. In plenty of our TE's we give some of these SAM systems a lot more respect than they deserve (I'm not saying we should be careless) I'm just saying that we should know and practice under what conditions we can safely operate in their area if our SEAD are unable to take them out before hand. It surprised me that the decision was made by strike not to fly solely NOE to target but we made it their unscathed anyway so it was a good call regardless.
The main reason NOE was recommended was we'd have been under minimum altitude of a lot of the SAMS, not only this the range circles placed on the map were a misrepresentation of their actual range given our low altitude and the ALQ-184's we were carrying the SA-2, SA-4 and SA-5 engagement range was probably close to a third of their actual represented threat circle and in most cases after you have closed in that far you are too close for their missiles to be able to maneuver effectively so you can defeat the missile with very little effort.
Elmo made a good call not to use the return leg to RTB, this meant the strike flight avoided an intercept flight and relieved some stress from the SEAD flights.
I saw a few different methods to completing this mission, the option I saw most effective would have been for the JSOW flight to have set pre-planned threat steerpoints for the AAA battalions and the SA-3 radar's also they could have used boresight/vis mode of the JSOW and any missile launch trails they saw visually then nail the SAM site that way, and the longer range SAMS could be prioritized by the other SEAD flights. Given they had 16 JSOW's between them they could have easily dealt with the majority of the SAM threats this way.
Also in the pdf brief the survival of only the strike flight was in the MS criteria, so given that each SAM system can only engage 1 F-16 at a time it's entirely possible to push past the SAM sites with at most 1 or 2 launches on 1 aircraft which can in most cases can be defeated at the cost of no aircraft the SEAD flight could influence the AI to engage them just by being closer to the SAM site than the strike flight so the strike should be able to pass safely (this is obviously a more risky method).
All in all I was very impressed with how much damage was done by the harms, the target was left completely exposed.. if it was a free loadout I think even a high altitude guided drop could have been achieved safely because they had cleared that many threats so kudos to you guys on that.
The air threat was relatively light to balance out the amount of SAMS, and as we could have been flying under 1000ft it would have just been too harsh to start throwing up bandits at Angels 20.
I hope that the mission achieved it's goal in showing that these SAM threats are in most cases just a hindrance and not actually a massive threat.
I recorded and uploaded a video that shows how to close the range on these SAM systems to get close enough to bomb them and even gun the radar's (pfft.. who needs harms). All recorded in the first attempt, its not a perfect run I over stressed the aircraft due to speed and the SA-4 site wouldn't fire but the same techniques apply to this as is used on the other SAMS.
See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ0AIMZOOJ0
Any thoughts on the mission would be appreciated.
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Reds
UNITED KINGDOM
1058 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 27 Mar 2013 : 00:18:12
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Really enjoyed the mission , it was good fun . But next time , could we use it as a Training exercise to learn these points you made rather than on a Sunday TE ? Our flight was completely bogged down in the weeds and the Jsow in my opinion is not a good choice of weapon at those altitudes .
I found myself launched upon on pop up attack so often and with a sam in the air , i'm not taking any chances .
Joif i see a training mission on the horizon 
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Joif
UNITED KINGDOM
320 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 27 Mar 2013 : 15:44:34
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Sometimes it takes a difficult Sunday TE to make us realize that we need training at certain things, it's a fair comment Thanks, I'll try get something rustled up in the coming weeks.
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utopic
ROMANIA
577 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 28 Mar 2013 : 13:47:50
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| I didn't take part in this Sunday flight, but boy do I like Joif's detailed (mission builder's) debrief. Kudos! |
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Reds
UNITED KINGDOM
1058 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 28 Mar 2013 : 22:39:28
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Joif , i'm glad we had this TE . Because it made me realise that in the Squad if you see a threat circle you avoid it, where as what your saying is . "See a sam threat EVADE it !!"
Now that is what i'm talking about .
I'm signing up , where's the fooking SAM evasion training again ??
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Joif
UNITED KINGDOM
320 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 28 Mar 2013 : 23:39:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Reds
Joif , i'm glad we had this TE . Because it made me realise that in the Squad if you see a threat circle you avoid it, where as what your saying is . "See a sam threat EVADE it !!"
Now that is what i'm talking about .
I'm signing up , where's the fooking SAM evasion training again ??
Well there's a few SAM threats in BMS worth avoiding completely.. but when that option isn't available we shouldn't have to feel like we have no hope in hell of succeeding in our mission
Set up a quick TE with various sam sites and practice evading missiles and taking out the radar's close range as seen in the video above, its a good adrenaline rush and soon enough the big bad SA-2 will start to feel like a blind man throwing rocks at your F-16.
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Reds
UNITED KINGDOM
1058 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 29 Mar 2013 : 00:12:51
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Awww , but i wanted to fly it multiplayer !
What is happening to the 185th ?
This is an online squadron , i fly training online , Joif lets sort it .
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Joif
UNITED KINGDOM
320 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 29 Mar 2013 : 00:30:48
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Yeah.. we will, I'm working the rest of this week so I'll try get something organised for the next week if work allows.
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Reds
UNITED KINGDOM
1058 Posts
Status: offline |
Posted - 29 Mar 2013 : 00:38:06
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Thankyou Joif , i know i mess about sometimes but i would really appreciate some training on this .
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Sunday 24th March - Op Homeland Saviour
