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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Griffin |
Posted - 01 Feb 2015 : 21:20:57
Flight leads in this Sunday's official campaign mission, "Korean Campaign 18" are requested to post a debrief of their flights actions, including any lessons learned or that should be learned by others.
Please put the following information at the top of your post:
Flight Role: (SEAD, ESCORT, STRIKE, Etc..)
Callsign11: "Pilot's name" AA=X AG=X RTB,MIA/KIA,EJT
Callsign12: "Pilot's name" AA=X AG=X RTB,MIA/KIA,EJT
Callsign13: "Pilot's name" AA=X AG=X RTB,MIA/KIA,EJT
Callsign14: "Pilot's name" AA=X AG=X RTB,MIA/KIA,EJT
Mission Outcome: MS,PS,MF
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| 12 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Griffin |
Posted - 07 Feb 2015 : 16:49:31
Thanks mate. As I have said before, you never stop learning with this sim.
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| Sharpe |
Posted - 07 Feb 2015 : 16:16:59
Sorry Griff:
A 2 or 3 DM is a two or three dimensional manoeuvre. Ie, a 2DM turn is one where you only change EITHER your height OR your direction. A 3DM is where you change both height and direction. The first 'dimension' is speed, which when you turn or change altitude will often change naturally anyway, but this can be exaggerated as well.
When defending, as we all know, it is best to change as many of the plains of movement you can. So changing speed (up preferably), direction and altitude is the best way to create targeting solution problems for anything trying to shoot at you. When you come off an attack, it can make sense to perform an immediate 3DM where the tactical situation allows/demands.
A utility pop up (attack) is what the Americans (and flight manual) refer to as a Pop Up Attack. Why the word 'utility' is placed in front of it I will never know, but as I spent a lot of time talking about this attack profile with a UK pilot its kind of stuck - silly really.
-Sharpe
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| Griffin |
Posted - 07 Feb 2015 : 13:14:20
For us numpties, can you explain;
a) DM as in "...3DM..."
b) Utility pop-up
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| Sharpe |
Posted - 07 Feb 2015 : 13:03:02
Hi Guys,
Well I have done my review of Flyingstones tape as promised and have to say I agree - its an unlucky shot that gets him.
Flyingstones flight was forced to fly over an area that they had little intel about, with lots of enemy land units below them and with a cloud deck at about 13-14,000 feet -but there are some learning points that can be taken away from this:
1) Flyingstones speed is 'only' 400-450knts, I might have been inclined to fly faster (500-550).
2) Flyingstone does not make enough lateral and vertical jinks while he is over the combat zone (in fact he doesnt make any until its too late).
3) Flyingstone maintains the same block (about A12-14) with no attempts to go higher. While I appreciate it was hard to find targets, once you had found them, you could have marked your target and only gone below the cloud layer when you were in a good position to do a fast VID of targets and release then pop back above the could - much of the AAA was optically guided [I have no idea how the game accounts for optical/teleoptical/radar guided AAA, but in principle hiding above the clouds should be a good thing, even if it does nothing more than get you a little higher].
4) Flyingstones turns on and off target are gentle, sweeping 2DM turns. I would have at least gone for a gentle 3DM (climb) off target and I might have been inclined to make more random and aggressive moves on my way in and certainly on my way out.
Thats 1 kill from AAA and 2 AC damaged from AAA in the last 2 A-G missions I have flown. We need to start understanding that the Pk of AAA is still good for A30+, does not start to look 'safe-ish' till A22.5 and below A15 you are really rolling the dice. While the Pk of an individual AAA platform is still 'low' at the best of times, when you are flying with hundreds or thousands of AAA units in a small area the Pk margin doesnt look so good - especially below A22.5.
- Yes we all had to fly below A15 that night due to cloud. Are we taking enough precautions in briefing inbound/outbound routes pre flight and flying as well as possible over AAA areas?
-NO-
In addition, here are the promised figures for CCIP release altitudes in various flight paramteters during diving CCIP attacks with clusters:
17 degrees @ 400knts Release = 1357' agl
32 degrees @ 323knts Release = 1554' agl
43 degrees @ 577 Release = 2477' agl
30 degrees @ 569knts Release = 2885' agl
55 degrees @ 393knts Release = 3295' agl
50 degrees @ 544 Release = 3811' agl
-Sharpe
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| Sharpe |
Posted - 07 Feb 2015 : 09:08:42
Yes Ironman we have done correct CCIP parameters on the KOTOR range and utility pop ups with dumb bombs - I don't think it was the same session - your testing my failing memory now! ;)
-Sharpe
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| Ironman |
Posted - 06 Feb 2015 : 22:25:28
Sharpe - didn't we cover this in one of your training sessions "off set pop up attack" ?
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| Sharpe |
Posted - 06 Feb 2015 : 21:25:38
Veiland,
In response to your concern about avoiding AAA and SA7 at low altitude you have to bear in mind the parameters for a CCIP attack. You should be on the deck (100' or less, 450knts to 500knts using a utility pop up attack. This increases your survival rate but needs lots of practice.
Further, the CCIP pipper will not 'catch up' with your flight path until about 5-7,000 feet even if you are in a 45-60 degree dive at 450knts+. Next time you have a free minute see the difference it makes doing 300 knts on a 45 degree delivery and what altitude you release at , then do the same at 60 degrees down angle. Then do the same angles at 450 - 500knts.
I will take an action to post results for such angles/speeds and another to review Flyingstones ACMI.
-Sharpe
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| Ironman |
Posted - 06 Feb 2015 : 18:27:06
I was visual with Flyingstone when he got hit by AAA. We were at 13-14.000ft and he was just off the target when the AAA lighted up around him. Roll of the dice really, could have happened at 18.000
as Zipgun would say "he was hit with the golden BB" - **** happens
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| Veiland |
Posted - 06 Feb 2015 : 09:54:33
I was visual with Flyingstone when he got hit by AAA. We were at 13-14.000ft and he was just off the target when the AAA lighted up around him. Roll of the dice really, could have happened at 18.000
I tried using Flyinstones CBU settings of burst altitude of 9000 and dropping in pair. Due to the precense of both AAA and SA-7 at the HART site I opted to release using CCRP, which worked really well againt non moving targets.
I find it really really hard to use CCIP and still stay at safe altitudes. Usually I end up at 8-10.000ft.
Ive since tried various safe delivery methods against moving targets offline, and the one Ive had most luck with is CCRP and TGP. I initially lock up the column with FCR in GMT mode, then switch to TGP and figure out which way the column is heading. Then I place the TGP at the start of the column or slightly ahead and bomb that spot using CCRP. If the column is moving line abreast its ofc another story as the vehicles is not passing through the same spot. |
| Griffin |
Posted - 05 Feb 2015 : 15:22:19
Flight Role: Interdiction
Shark51: "Griffin" AA=0 AG=16 RTB
Shark52: "Floyd" AA=0 AG=6 RTB
Shark53: "Flying Stone" AA=0 AG=5 EJT
Shark54: "Vieland" AA=0 AG=12 RTB
Mission Outcome: PS
We were first up and climbed toFL260 for ingress. Our two targets were split between the elements. Fit element went in with Maverics which helped mark our targets for the second runs with clusters. Floyd and I made a nice mess of the enemy there. We then climbed high to set up a CAP.
Meanwhile the second element went to find their targets. Theirs was the tougher assignment as there was an active HART site close to the enemy. There was some difficulty finding the targets but once found they were nicely dealt with. However this required a lower than advised approach which ultimately cost Flying Stone his aircraft.
Once all were off target we returned to base.
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| Sharpe |
Posted - 01 Feb 2015 : 22:29:31
Snake 51: Interdiction
Mission Success
Snake 51: Sharpe AA:0 AG:5 RTB
Snake 52: Crowebar TBD RTB
Snake 53: Elmo TBD RTB
Snake 54: Simpson TBD RTB
Fairly standard (but late) departure, Simpson's load was slow but it eventually let him in.
Got to target area (having also handed off the SU25's) and was already in long trail (5 mile separation). This wagon when formation was largely held until the end when lead called that the flight could engage targets of opportunity (due to low number of targets in kill box).
Came home and was number one to land. Per SOP's we set up for an overhead break to the left (having called this on uniform before pushing tower).
Break was executed well but on the downing turn we found an aircraft almost within our pattern that had not announced its location or intentions. This caused 2 to abort and then (after the aircraft id'd itself - by then it was very close to short finals) 2 slotted back into the break and the flight landed.
I would like to say everyone in my flight did very well especially with coms. My only comment would be to Simpson to remind him to hold the wagon wheel attack or to ask permission to leave it. An order clearing to attack targets of opportunity is different to engage targets at will and infers that you should hold the briefed attack pattern. You got very close to stores in flight and other aircraft in the area (keep an eye on your SA kit). Other than that we'll done all round.
As TO I would like to draw attention to the total shambles from all flights at landing. First my flight was the only one the actually stuck to SOP's and performed an overhead break (nothing else was briefed by any other flight).
First my flight was in the break when another aircraft was just landing on the right side runway without announcing it's landing at outer marker or inbound intentions. Also this aircraft was a long way from the rest of its flight. All in all this caused one of my flight to abort then perform a very dangerous region in the break between 3 and 4.
As TO I can only observe that we as a VFS are ignoring our SOP, require a new/revised SOP for landing that includes arrival/recovery details and a significant amount of practice. It seems to me that we as a VFS require more training, practice and implementation in the basics/fundementals of flying as it seems that despite plenty of training opportunities the overall flying standard and adherence to SOP's within the VFS is falling.
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| utopic |
Posted - 01 Feb 2015 : 21:32:10
Flight Role: Interdiction
Stud51: "Utopic" AA=0 AG=6 RTB
Stud52: "Zipgun" AA=0 AG=9 RTB
Stud53: "Ironman" AA=0 AG=0 TECH
Mission Outcome: MS
We took off behind Snake 5, and on the way in we lost Ironman due to connection issues and he insisted not to rejoin in order not to mess up the mission scores for everyone else.
Because Ironman was carrying MAVs, he took lead and went in first.
After 2 passes he was Dakota and went to the holding point.
I had to make lots of passes and do CCRP-Declare-CCIP-Release in order to attack moving targets close to the FLOT. Due to time constraints I released 10/12 Rockeyes, and then RTBed.
Because of the left AG ordinance we didn't do a break. Also, we had to abbort the first landing attempt due to all the traffic.
I think holding out of rejoing the mission after disconnecting is no indication of mission integrity or good/correct scores. |
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