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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Vosene |
Posted - 29 Aug 2010 : 22:11:50
Members who flew as a Flight Lead in the Sunday mission, "Follow Up", are requested to post a debrief by Tuesday evening.
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| 5 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Vosene |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 20:32:37
No one should feel foolish for discussing mistakes in the debrief, least of all Flight Leads. It is just a frank and open discussion so everyone can learn.
For an effective debrief everyone needs to leave their pride at the door. Experienced or newbie, everyone has good points and points to improve on in every mission. Many of these will have been covered during the Flight debrief with only those relevant to the whole package done at the final central debrief.
Although it often ends up like it, the debrief should not be just a verbatim account of what a flight did in the mission. The mission flow should only be used to highlight relevant learning points, positive and negative.
Last night there were lots of good points. for example all human aircraft RTB, the majority of the A2A engagements going well and effectively clearing the ground threats. All of the were mentioned but we also had several areas we didn't do so well and these were debriefed as well.
I agree we're all here to have fun. I don't know about anyone else but I always have more fun if the team flies well, we achieve a MS and get everyone home than if we mess up, get a MF and half the package is shot down. If we aren't honest at the debrief then we'll never learn. Not learning from mistakes means failure in future missions and friendly aircraft being lost.
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| SnakeBite |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 19:34:05
quote:
Originally posted by Crowebar
I would like to comment on the post flight debrief last night though. While it is a necessary and very important tool, especially as a part of the overall learning circle, I do think we have to be carefull not to be too critical. Most weeks there is a defening silence when the question arises of who is going to be flight lead. I speak for myself when I say that from my point of view, I keep quite because of a lack of confidence and not wanting to screw-up. Being a normal bloke who's feelings are probably the same as everyone else's, I guess this is probably the same reason for the silence across the board. I speak of relatively new and inexperienced guys here. I guess the old timers who remain quite have just done flight lead enough times that they want to give us new guys a chance! However, the point I am trying to get at is this. If someone reluctantly takes flight lead and takes the risk of looking foolish, and gets told they were foolish at the end of the flight, they will remain silent again when the call goes out for flight leads in the weeks to come. Ok so the critisism last night was aimed at more experienced members of the sqn. But us 'newbies' were listening and thinking!
I guess what I'm saying is that the debrief needs to remain constructive, and not a bun fight. I should think even the most experienced guys might get fed up of critisism, as we all turn up to persue our hobby!
Not aimed at anyone, just a general comment.
I agree!
Fighting never been constructive, and that was never the case in our debriefs. New pilots stepping in as flight leads are much encouraged and appreciated. I do personally like to experience different people leading my flight, regardless of their experience level. "Looking Foolish"?! Who ever thinks that this is foolishness must step in and take the lead, and impress us. I however don't think anyone in the squadron has this kind of attitude.
I think yesterday's debate was more about "constructive" comments, rather than criticism. If we learn from the points that we missed in every flight we had in the past, we would have been the best AF pilots in the world, no doubt.
Certain things come into play for different pilots. Experience teaches you discipline when flying an F-16 or in AF, the more disciplined you are, the better pilot you will be, I'm not talking about anyone in particular, I'm having a general chat here, it's for all of us, newbies to the most experienced pilots in the squadron.
Human instinct for example has a big effect on the individual performance of a pilot. As for an example, we all know that abort ranges are about 25nm for the safe zone against an active shooter (R-77), 22nm is the hard limit, your instinct may keep you pushing in to support your missile longer while getting yourself closer to the active shooters, penetrating the 22nm hard limit, which puts you in the "underdog" position and you will most probably end up holding the 'eject' handle in your jet, or burning all fuel onboard to run away.
Bottom line, we're hear to enjoy our flight nights. It's a hobby and we all love it, doing it the right way will make more enjoyable. Let's try doing it better everytime we fly.
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| Crowebar |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 18:26:57
Falcon1 - SEAD Strike
Mission: Follow Up
Mission Result - Partial Success
#1:Crowebar
#2:Ballistic
#3:Blade
#4:AI
Falcon1 were briefed to attack the Southern SA5 before 17:50 when the Buff's were due to arrive. We were then to procede inland and destroy the Eastern SA5 as a secondary target should circumstances permit.
On route we were instructed by Chalis to hold off the coast to avoid becoming entangled in the air battle in which both Cowboy and Fury were engaged. We only held for a short while before being cleared to proceed. The lead element quickly eliminated the first 'Southern' SA5 barlock B and were loitering on the edge of the threat circle, while 2nd element headed east towards secondary target of 'Eastern' SA5.
At about this point Challis requested we engage the 'Western' SA5 as Cowboy flight were unable at that time and the Buffs were almost due on target. We complied. 1 & 2 were in a position to take a shot almost imediately, and 2 was cleared in hot. Almost immediately Challis warned of a flight of 4 Mig 29S had turned hot on us and were an immediate threat. So much so that 3 already had a missile inbound. The gap between elements worked out ideal for us as we allmost bracketed the mig 29S's. 1 was closest and got 2 slammers off imediately and turned defensive, 2 got a shot off a few seconds later. 3 fired from the North east and turned defensive by which time 1 was hot again. Excellent manouvring which saw us with at least 1 of us hot all the time. The 4th Mig was damaged and ran.
During the Mig 29 engagement 2's HARM scored a hit on the 'Western' SA5.
The flight now turned it's attention to the secondary target 'Eastern' SA5. 2nd Element in the lead, 1st element 5 miles trail. The SA5 was engaged, but 3's HARM's missed. At about this time Challis gave us more 'trade', a flight of 4 Mig 21MF's approaching the Buff's. We started the classic approach of fire and turn. But I quickly realised, right or wrongly, that this wasn't an option as they were too close to the Buff's. We needed to press the attack and get them shot down. I passed this thought on to rest of flight and whole flight turned hot, eliminating the Mig 21MF's.
Air picture was now clear. #3 was Dekota, #2 was Winchester. #1 had 1 radar and 1 Harm. So we took a couple of shots at the ellusive 'eastern' SA5. We had time to watch the missile in, they seemed to go straight at the barlock B and hit it, but then an impact circle appeared 20 ft to the side in the snow. #3 reported his HARM's had hit trees. The actual Barlock B was in the open on the top of a mountain so it should have been hit 4 times over!
We remained on TARCAP to the South East of Buff flight path, as briefed until cleared to RTB by Challis. Following an uneventfull flight home we practiced an overhead break at 1500 ft before turning into circuit to land.
All jets returned safely. Job done.
I enjoyed this mission, and as someone still cutting my teath as a flight lead I found it to be a medium complex mission. There was enough to make me sweat and have to think and make decisions etc, but I wasn't overwelmed and tumble weed. So I guess I am improving.
I would like to comment on the post flight debrief last night though. While it is a necessary and very important tool, especially as a part of the overall learning circle, I do think we have to be carefull not to be too critical. Most weeks there is a defening silence when the question arises of who is going to be flight lead. I speak for myself when I say that from my point of view, I keep quite because of a lack of confidence and not wanting to screw-up. Being a normal bloke who's feelings are probably the same as everyone else's, I guess this is probably the same reason for the silence across the board. I speak of relatively new and inexperienced guys here. I guess the old timers who remain quite have just done flight lead enough times that they want to give us new guys a chance! However, the point I am trying to get at is this. If someone reluctantly takes flight lead and takes the risk of looking foolish, and gets told they were foolish at the end of the flight, they will remain silent again when the call goes out for flight leads in the weeks to come. Ok so the critisism last night was aimed at more experienced members of the sqn. But us 'newbies' were listening and thinking!
I guess what I'm saying is that the debrief needs to remain constructive, and not a bun fight. I should think even the most experienced guys might get fed up of critisism, as we all turn up to persue our hobby!
Not aimed at anyone, just a general comment.
RECORD BEGIN TIMESTAMP 8/29/2010 21:56:26.
Game is Tactical Engagement type Networked
Mission name: Follow Up
Mission Type: SEAD Strike
Flight Callsign: Falcon1
4 Ship Flight
Ac type: F-16C-52
Country: Slovenian
FLIGHT EVENTS
Event Blade joined as Falcon13 at 17:25:12
Event Crowebar joined as Falcon11 at 17:25:13
Event Ballistic joined as Falcon12 at 17:36:02
Event SA5 launched at Crowebar 17:38:51
Event Yugoslavian Barlock-B destroyed by Crowebar at 17:41:40
Event R-77 launched at Blade 17:49:55
Event Yugoslavian Barlock-B destroyed by Ballistic at 17:51:45
Event Yugoslavian MiG-29S downed by Crowebar at 17:52:45
Event Yugoslavian MiG-29S downed by Crowebar at 17:54:43
Event Yugoslavian MiG-29S downed by Ballistic at 17:55:06
Event Yugoslavian MiG-21MF downed by Ballistic at 18:02:30
Event Yugoslavian MiG-21MF downed by Ballistic at 18:02:48
Event Yugoslavian MiG-21MF downed by Blade at 18:02:59
Event Crowebar landed at 18:32:31
Event Blade landed at 18:32:32
Event Crowebar landed at 18:32:33
Event Ballistic landed at 18:33:10
Event Blade exited from Falcon13 at 18:36:08
Event Ballistic exited from Falcon12 at 18:49:41
Event Crowebar exited from Falcon11 at 18:49:42
-------------
PILOT SLOT 1:
Human Player: 2Lt. Crowebar
Callsign: Crowebar
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 2
AG Kills 1
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 1
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 2
Fired 1
Missed 0
Hit 1
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 18:02:35 hit MiG-21MF - damaged
LOADOUT 2: AIM-120B
Starting Load 2
Fired 2
Missed 0
Hit 2
Event AIM-120B released at 17:51:50 hit MiG-29S - destroyed
Event AIM-120B released at 17:53:55 hit MiG-29S - destroyed
LOADOUT 3: AGM-88C
Starting Load 2
Fired 2
Missed 1
Hit 1
Event AGM-88C released at 17:38:31 hit Barlock-B - destroyed
Event AGM-88C released at 18:00:46 miss
LOADOUT 4: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 5: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
-------------
PILOT SLOT 2:
Human Player: 2Lt. Ballistic
Callsign: Ballistic
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 0
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 0
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 2: AIM-120B
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: AGM-88C
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 4: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 5: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
-------------
PILOT SLOT 3:
Human Player: Maj. Blade
Callsign: Blade
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 1
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 1
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 2: AIM-120B
Starting Load 2
Fired 1
Missed 0
Hit 1
Event AIM-120B released at 18:02:04 hit MiG-21MF - destroyed
LOADOUT 3: AGM-88C
Starting Load 2
Fired 2
Missed 2
Hit 0
Event AGM-88C released at 17:50:24 miss
Event AGM-88C released at 17:56:13 miss
LOADOUT 4: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 5: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
-------------
PILOT SLOT 4:
AI Player: Lt. McEldowney
Callsign: Falcon14
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 0
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 0
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 2: AIM-120B
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: AGM-88C
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 4: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 5: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
|
| Floyd |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 16:55:48
Fury1 - Escort
According to our task to escort we followed our (modified) flight plan
and were directed by the excellent AWACS (thanks, Lumper!) towards two Mig-29A
and shot them down. Turning cold and flying at the edge of the SA-5 circle we
waited for that western SA-5 to go down when AWACS called out four more MiG-29A.
We heard Cowboy1 engaging and corrected out course to the north-west (AWACS informed
the other flight that we're crossing). We sorted the lead element and with the bandits
at 25 miles i informed the other flight that we're engaging. My missile missed, #2 of
the other flight shot down one MiG and we were spiked by the MiGs for some some time
from the six o'clock. The three bandits broke through to shoot down the first two bomber.
Hearing that i re-engaged and shot the MiGs down. After that we capped to the west of Mostar,
but nothing else happened until we were cleared by AWACS to RTB.
--------------------------------------------------------
RECORD BEGIN TIMESTAMP 8/29/2010 22:56:22.
Game is Tactical Engagement type Networked
Mission name: Follow Up
Mission Type: Escort
Flight Callsign: Fury1
2 Ship Flight
Ac type: F-16C-52
Country: Slovenian
FLIGHT EVENTS
Event Novac joined as Fury12 at 17:23:09
Event Floyd joined as Fury11 at 17:23:13
Event R-27R launched at Novac 17:43:23
Event Yugoslavian MiG-29A downed by Novac at 17:43:56
Event Yugoslavian MiG-29A downed by Floyd at 17:44:15
Event R-27R launched at Novac 17:49:37
Event Yugoslavian MiG-29A downed by Floyd at 17:55:54
Event Yugoslavian MiG-29A downed by Floyd at 17:56:33
Event Yugoslavian MiG-29A downed by Floyd at 17:56:47
Event Floyd landed at 18:26:40
Event Novac landed at 18:26:48
Event Novac exited from Fury12 at 18:49:34
Event Floyd exited from Fury11 at 18:49:43
-------------
PILOT SLOT 1:
Human Player: Maj. Floyd
Callsign: Floyd
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 4
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 0
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 6
Fired 5
Missed 1
Hit 4
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:42:39 hit MiG-29A - destroyed
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:49:04 miss
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:55:05 hit MiG-29A - destroyed
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:56:02 hit MiG-29A - destroyed
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:56:20 hit MiG-29A - destroyed
LOADOUT 2: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
-------------
PILOT SLOT 2:
Human Player: Maj. Novac
Callsign: Novac
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 1
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 2
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 6
Fired 2
Missed 1
Hit 1
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:42:47 hit MiG-29A - destroyed
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:49:09 miss
LOADOUT 2: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
|
| SnakeBite |
Posted - 30 Aug 2010 : 05:46:53
Cowboy1 - SEAD Escort
1.SnakeBite
2.Vosene
3.Sabre
4.Mango
Cowboy flight took off and decided to maintain 30 seconds separation between elements. Heading to our stpt3, we were monitoring the air picture and waiting from the SEAD Strike flight to take Dubrovnik SA-5. Once we got the call we moved up slightly to the north to intercept our stpt8 so we get a little bit closer to the Buffs (although that's not our goal) but we did that to get a better SA overall.
Element one was to go for the SA-5 over target area and then push in while element two scan for any pop-up SAMs that may come up, this plan never seen the light as we ended up engaging MiG-29s over target area as soon as #2 had a shot on the SA-5.
Element two comes in 'hot' to support the 'cold' element one, they were cleared to engage air threats, they had a shot on the SA-5 and then continued on their engagement. Mig-29 kept tracking #1 and #2 for some odd reason and they had few shots on us so we kept running away from them also to clear the picture for other friendlies. Element two got into the fight with those Migs and I believe other flights did too.
After the "messy" engagement, we provided CAP for the Buffs until we were cleared RTB.
I think we have talked about the mission on TS, but I do have few points to raise as a future reference for all of us.
1- When a wingman acknowledges a call then he is to execute the requested call, regardless of what it is, we have to trust flight leads, it doesn't matter how much experience does the flight lead have.
2- That's been happening for a long time now, but here again, we shouldn't step in and start transmitting on TS when someone else is speaking, in fact, if two people or more are talking, then I can hear neither one of them.
Ideally, wait for someone to finish before you step in. If you have something urgent, use the chat in AF.
3- Briefing is the core of the mission, it actually values more than 50% of your Situation Awareness in the whole mission. A proper briefing is the way to succeed.
Overall, I liked the mission, enjoyed the flight and it was a pleasure to fly with you all again. I'm looking forward for more action.
Thanks to Lumper for his AWACS support.
WE NEED NEW TE WRITERS!
Special thanks to Griffin for his efforts on writing all these TE's.
I'd personally be happy to award Griffin the "Platinum TE Writing Medal", a well deserved Medal.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------
RECORD BEGIN TIMESTAMP 8/29/2010 15:58:10.
Game is Tactical Engagement type Networked
Mission name: Follow Up
Mission Type: SEAD Escort
Flight Callsign: Cowboy1
4 Ship Flight
Ac type: F-16C-52
Country: Slovenian
FLIGHT EVENTS
Event SnakeBite joined as Cowboy11 at 17:26:07
Event 185mango joined as Cowboy14 at 17:26:11
Event Vosene joined as Cowboy12 at 17:26:12
Event Sabre_185th joined as Cowboy13 at 17:26:34
Event Yugoslavian MiG-29A downed by Vosene at 17:49:55
Event R-27R launched at Sabre_185th 17:52:07
Event R-27R launched at SnakeBite 17:53:01
Event R-27R launched at Vosene 17:53:16
Event Yugoslavian MiG-21F downed by Vosene at 18:00:37
Event Yugoslavian MiG-21F downed by Vosene at 18:00:44
Event Sabre_185th landed at 18:43:45
Event SnakeBite landed at 18:46:34
Event SnakeBite landed at 18:46:38
Event Vosene landed at 18:46:40
Event 185mango landed at 18:48:55
Event 185mango landed at 18:48:57
Event SnakeBite exited from Cowboy11 at 18:51:41
-------------
PILOT SLOT 1:
Human Player: 2Lt. SnakeBite
Callsign: SnakeBite
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 0
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 1
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 3
Fired 1
Missed 1
Hit 0
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:48:43 miss
LOADOUT 2: AGM-88C
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 4: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 5: AIM-9M
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
-------------
PILOT SLOT 2:
Human Player: Vosene
Callsign: Vosene
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 3
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 1
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120B
Starting Load 4
Fired 3
Missed 0
Hit 3
Event AIM-120B released at 17:48:46 hit MiG-29A - destroyed
Event AIM-120B released at 17:59:49 hit MiG-21F - destroyed
Event AIM-120B released at 18:00:04 hit MiG-21F - destroyed
LOADOUT 2: AGM-88C
Starting Load 2
Fired 1
Missed 1
Hit 0
Event AGM-88C released at 17:47:39 miss
LOADOUT 3: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 4: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
-------------
PILOT SLOT 3:
Human Player: Sabre
Callsign: Sabre_185th
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 0
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 1
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 3
Fired 1
Missed 0
Hit 1
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:56:14 hit MiG-29A - damaged
LOADOUT 2: AGM-88C
Starting Load 2
Fired 1
Missed 1
Hit 0
Event AGM-88C released at 17:51:15 miss
LOADOUT 3: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 4: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 5: AIM-9M
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
-------------
PILOT SLOT 4:
Human Player: mango
Callsign: 185mango
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 0
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 0
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 4
Fired 1
Missed 1
Hit 0
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:51:39 miss
LOADOUT 2: AGM-88C
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 4: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
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| 185th VFS |
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