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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Vosene |
Posted - 09 May 2010 : 19:46:37
Members who flew as a Flight Lead in the Sunday mission, "Air Pistols Teaser III", are requested to post a debrief by Tuesday evening.
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| 12 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Vosene |
Posted - 11 May 2010 : 21:42:06
quote:
Originally posted by tiag
From what I got from your debriefs, some stats:
Blue:
10 x F-16s, 8 Humans + 2 AIs -> 4 F-16s lost. 40%
Red:
12 x F-16s, 9 Humans + 3 AIs -> 6(?) F-16s lost. 50%
Looking at just human pilots (excluding AI):
Red Team had 9 human pilots and lost 3 aircraft 2 of which were shot down by aircraft one was an SA-6 pop-up threat. This is a 33% loss rate.
Blue Team had 8 human pilots and lost 4 aircraft, all of which I believe were shot down by other aircraft. This is a 50% loss rate.
Not good loss rates for either side but with a 2:1 kill ratio, all other things being equal you'd eventually expect one side to come out on top but the total losses would catastrophic for both sides. Not sure any modern air-force could cop with this level of loss per sortie.
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| SnakeBite |
Posted - 11 May 2010 : 20:41:41
On large scale TE's, I would suggest that we start the server (host) at 1900 UK so whoever thinks that he would have connection issues can connect to the server before everyone else joins. This way we give 10 mins to everyone to connect to the server, instead of trying to fix connection issues after 1930. 1940 would be the time to hop in the TE screen and start briefing.
Bottom line is to start server at 1900 so if you get in early you can test your connection by yourself, 30 mins earlier is reasonable I believe.
Host IP Address can be posted in members area 24 hours before official mission.
SnakeBite |
| Sabre |
Posted - 11 May 2010 : 19:54:44
Note on the results for Green and Blue.
The CPL only allows for 3 flights, therefore I have added Sabre and Mango to the third flight with Blade and Stevie.
Only Sabre's result is affected by this, no big deal.
Sabre was here |
| Sabre |
Posted - 11 May 2010 : 19:42:42
Sabre and Mango with two AI.
Essentially we flew pretty patterns in the sky as instructed by AWACS, stayed out of trouble and turned to engage when requested. AI managed to shoot an enemy aircraft down due to good control by Mango and we returned home.
No fences were harmed during this mission.
Clear communications from Snakebite as AWACS.
Usual problems with time taken to connect etc, but don't have any suggestions as to what to do about it.
Enjoyed the idea of humans on the other side adds a whole new perspective.
Any feedback from our Portuguese friends?
Thanks to Tiag and the Portuguese for flying and organizing.
I think I got a complete tape of the mission.
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RECORD BEGIN TIMESTAMP 5/9/2010 23:32:36.
Game is Tactical Engagement type Networked
Mission name: AP3
Mission Type: DCA
Flight Callsign: Fury1
4 Ship Flight
Ac type: F-16C-52
Country: DPRK
FLIGHT EVENTS
Event 185mango joined as Fury13 at 22:55:12
Event Sabre_185th joined as Fury11 at 22:55:27
Event AIM-120C-4 launched at 185mango 23:37:34
Event Fury14 downed by U.S. F-16C-50 CCIP at 23:39:00
Event U.S. F-16C-50 CCIP downed by Fury14 at 23:39:18
Event AIM-120C-4 launched at 185mango 23:48:37
Event MIM-23 Hawk launched at Sabre_185th 23:54:45
Event SA4 launched at 185mango 00:04:12
Event Sabre_185th landed at 00:42:37
Event Sabre_185th landed at 00:42:40
Event 185mango landed at 00:46:00
Event 185mango exited from Fury13 at 00:49:49
Event Sabre_185th exited from Fury11 at 01:25:36
-------------
PILOT SLOT 1:
Human Player: 2Lt. Sabre
Callsign: Sabre_185th
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 0
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 1
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 6
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 2: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
-------------
PILOT SLOT 2:
AI Player: Lt. Mendenhall
Callsign: Fury12
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 0
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 0
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 6
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 2: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
-------------
PILOT SLOT 3:
Human Player: 2Lt. mango
Callsign: 185mango
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 0
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 3
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 6
Fired 1
Missed 1
Hit 0
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 23:37:40 miss
LOADOUT 2: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
-------------
PILOT SLOT 4:
AI Player: Lt. Wherkamp
Callsign: Fury14
Pilot status - KIA
Aircraft status - DESTROYED
AA Kills 1
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 0
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 6
Fired 1
Missed 0
Hit 1
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 23:38:24 hit F-16C-50 CCIP - destroyed
LOADOUT 2: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
Sabre was here |
| Pinbeck |
Posted - 11 May 2010 : 16:22:31
Serpent 1 - Red
Serpent 1-1 Pinbeck
Serpent 1-2 Vosene
Serpent 1-3 Big Brother
Serpent 1-4 AI
Mission:- SEAD
Took off and climbed to angels 40.
Proceeded past steerpoint 3 where we made first contact with bogeys, called Lumper in AWAC to declare and they came back as bandit F-16's.
Vosene in N0.2 and myself engaged the bandits, if fired off an AIM-120 and started to crank right keeping bandit locked until pitbull. Broke lock after missile went pitbull and went defensive as missiles were now inbound on me, got a bit too close:(.
Managed to evade a couple but was shot down by bandits, my missile having missed.
During the engagement Vosene managed to kill his bandit and continue with mission. Sort was not good as we both fired on same bandit, as flight lead I take the blame for not making it clear who was engaging who.
Big Brother meantime was engaging an SA-6 which he managed to destroy but not before the missile knocked him down. AI was also destroyed.
This left Vosene alone but he was winchester by this time and RTB'd.
Missed a lot of the action as I was shot down, forgot to take acmi again, so if anyone from Serpent wants to add comments feel free.
Nice idea Tiag,thank you for the effort put into creating the mission.
Also very nice to fly with the guys from the 69th.
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| Raptor |
Posted - 11 May 2010 : 16:06:32
I would agree with tiag. We need to be sticking to the minimum out ranges. That way we should be loosing AIM-120s not F-16s. Also if each side had a comprehensive brief with a single map showing all the routes/CAP points of the entire package/side. That would give good pre-hand SA to all as to who is where. There were buddies locking me up and asking for a declaration. I my self didn't know who was capping on my left and right, until sometime into the TE. |
| Crowebar |
Posted - 11 May 2010 : 10:07:42
I took over flight lead Cowboy flight when Homer got hit.
We entered the engagement with myself 10 - 15 miles trail of homer due to our cap circuit. Which put me offensive 25 miles from bandits while Homer was evading 2 slammers. I got a fox 3 off, supported it to 22 miles and turned to run.
Once clear I was istructed by Spirit to join another flight, I think it was Lobo. However on route I picked up contacts at close range, 17 miles, Spirit 1 declared these hostile so I engaged with fox 3 and immediately turned cold to run. Spirit 1 told me to run on a heading 30 degrees which I did.
Once I felt I was in the clear I took stock and decided I needed to gain altitude before rejoining the fight as I was at around angels 17. To conserve fuel I kept out of burner and went into a right hand climbing turn so to face the enemy. Cripes, 3 bandits on the nose at 7 miles. i am below them and due to climb, slow. The inbound slammer got me.
very enjoyable TE thanks Tiag. On the attrition rate, perhaps 40-50% is what to expect when both sides are evenly matched in both skill and equipment?
Mission Type: DCA
Flight Callsign: Cowboy1
2 Ship Flight
Ac type: F-16C-52
Country: DPRK
FLIGHT EVENTS
Event Crowebar joined as Cowboy12 at 22:51:18
Event Homer joined as Cowboy11 at 22:51:23
Event AIM-120B launched at Homer 23:36:37
Event AIM-120B launched at Homer 23:36:48
Event Homer ejected at 23:37:34
Event U.S. F-16C-50 CCIP downed by Crowebar at 23:38:57
Event AIM-120B launched at Crowebar 23:42:49
Event Homer exited from Cowboy11 at 23:43:26
Event U.S. F-16C-50 CCIP downed by Crowebar at 23:43:54
Event Crowebar ejected at 23:44:16
Event Crowebar exited from Cowboy12 at 00:49:32
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PILOT SLOT 1:
Human Player: 2Lt. Homer
Callsign: Homer
Pilot status - RESCUED
Aircraft status - DESTROYED
AA Kills 0
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 2
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 6
Fired 2
Missed 2
Hit 0
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 23:36:31 miss
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 23:37:06 miss
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PILOT SLOT 2:
Human Player: 2Lt. Crowebar
Callsign: Crowebar
Pilot status - RESCUED
Aircraft status - DESTROYED
AA Kills 2
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 1
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 6
Fired 2
Missed 0
Hit 2
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 23:37:53 hit F-16C-50 CCIP - destroyed
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 23:42:36 hit F-16C-50 CCIP - destroyed
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| tiag |
Posted - 10 May 2010 : 20:56:32
From what I got from your debriefs, some stats:
Blue:
10 x F-16s, 8 Humans + 2 AIs -> 4 F-16s lost. 40%
Red:
12 x F-16s, 9 Humans + 3 AIs -> 6(?) F-16s lost. 50%
If we just forget MS/PS/MF results, the mere fact that BOTH teams had an atrition rate of about 40-50%, the mission was a disaster! If we extrapolate, each team would be loosing 24 planes after 4 missions (4x12 sorties). 24 is the PAA of a typical USAF fighter squadron,.i.e., a F-16 squadron would be totally destroyed every two days of a real war supposing two missions/day (sic). Regarding survivability, really, really poor!
Debrief File for my DCA with Raptor as FL:
FLIGHT EVENTS
Event tiag joined as Falcon12 at 22:57:18
Event Raptor joined as Falcon11 at 22:57:20
Event AIM-120B launched at Raptor 23:41:48
Event AIM-120B launched at Raptor 23:41:55
Event U.S. F/A-18C downed by Raptor at 00:10:51
Event U.S. F/A-18C downed by tiag at 00:13:22
Event U.S. F/A-18C downed by tiag at 00:13:23
Event U.S. F/A-18C downed by tiag at 00:15:34
Event AIM-9M launched at tiag 00:16:55
Event tiag landed at 00:48:47
Event Raptor landed at 00:48:52 ;-)
Event Raptor exited from Falcon11 at 00:51:16
Event tiag exited from Falcon12 at 00:56:12
PILOT SLOT 1:
Human Player: 2Lt. Raptor
Callsign: Raptor
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 1
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 2
Other Player Kills 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 6
Fired 3
Missed 2
Hit 1
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 00:09:28 hit F/A-18C - destroyed
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 00:14:36 miss
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 00:15:23 miss
PILOT SLOT 2:
Human Player: Capt. Tiag
Callsign: tiag
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 3
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 1
Other Player Kills 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 6
Fired 5
Missed 2
Hit 3
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 23:40:12 miss
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 00:12:06 hit F/A-18C - destroyed
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 00:12:17 hit F/A-18C - destroyed
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 00:14:35 hit F/A-18C - destroyed
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 00:16:38 miss
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| SnakeBite |
Posted - 10 May 2010 : 20:55:08
That's a very interesting mission actually, reason being one side having tech issues and the other side had a smooth ride overall. Although I was in AWACS screen all the time, I haven't heard any complaints from our side (Blue1).
On the other hand, I believe flying around the SA-11 would have been a better choice, since those SAM's are hard to take out, and they are very similar to the famous SA-17.
@Homer: Enemies were flying at Angels 40 when I suggested the climb, holding 29,000ft to 40,000ft F-16 will make you the underdog.
I fully support the idea of flying different kinds of jets in FoF events to minimize the confusion in AA combat.
As an AWACS controller for blue side, I would say that our mission went pretty smooth although we lost 3 jets to Red side, but I believe that was due to exceeding the abort range limits for BVR air combat. Comms were good, flight leads were disciplined overall.
I'm glad that we are achieving this high-level of complexity on Sunday nights with the limited capability of F4AF, although it's time consuming. Thanks to everyone especially Tiag.
SnakeBite |
| Griffin |
Posted - 10 May 2010 : 15:56:44
Python 1 - Red
11 - Griffin
12 - Novac
13 - Floyd
four ship interdiction flight, tasked to take out SAMs and the radar at Koksan. Aim was to fly high and skirt the SA11's and others to try to get to Koksan. A four ship of Blue F-16s headed towards us. I evaded one slammer but another one sneaked up (no warning--MADDOG?) and down I went. Flyd hit one of the enemy and then set up the flight ready for another attempt. We had lost the AI pilot too. Both Floyd and Novac fired at firm SA11 and Koksan radar targets but none of the HARMs hit. I suspect that the number of rejoins/disconnections caused the system screw up. Novac and Floyd at one time had 14 steerpoint on our route, despite only actually having 9!
A very taxing mission with plenty to think about. I too would have preferred it against Mig 29S or higher (equivalent) but it was still a good mission.
It was good to fly with the 69th guys as well.
Thanks Tiag.
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| Stevie |
Posted - 10 May 2010 : 13:01:10
Team Blue - flying on Red side 
Lobo11 Stevie
Lobo12 Blade
We took off on time and headed to our station area. Once we reached our area a 4 ship F16 where inbound from the south. We were directed by Spirit1 (awacs) to head that way. Soon the 4 ship turned cold on us and we decided to head back towards our patrol area because we where pretty far from it, and enemy AD opened fire on us. Fury1 was on the way to provide backup during our way back.
After a few we again turned out and managed to splash one of the attackers. After that we where back on station again. Soon we spotted high and low incoming threats from the east. We went in and engaged. I was shot by enemy sam (i think?) after i turned cold. Not much later Blade was also shot and Lobo1 flight was history.
My thoughts about this mission:
- I'm no FL. I'm to busy with all things during A2A without letting my wing know what i'm doing. Hats off for Blade for following me blind into the enemy air threats ;)
- It took to long before we got connected. I can understand it is difficult, but maybe we should setup the connections 30 minutes earlier.
- I would enjoy doing these kind of missions (FoF) more often - but i would however see a different plane setup (F16 v F16)
RECORD BEGIN TIMESTAMP 5/9/2010 23:19:34.
Game is Tactical Engagement type Networked
Mission name: AP3
Mission Type: DCA
Flight Callsign: Lobo1
2 Ship Flight
Ac type: F-16C-52
Country: DPRK
FLIGHT EVENTS
Event stevie joined as Lobo11 at 22:53:10
Event Blade joined as Lobo12 at 22:53:13
Event SA4 launched at stevie 23:42:14
Event AIM-120C-4 launched at Blade 23:43:27
Event AIM-120C-4 launched at Blade 23:53:06
Event AIM-120C-4 launched at stevie 23:53:59
Event U.S. MB339* downed by stevie at 23:57:12
Event AIM-120C-4 launched at stevie 23:57:28
Event stevie ejected at 23:58:29
Event Mk-82 launched at Blade 23:58:51
Event Mk-82 launched at Blade 23:58:51
Event Mk-82 launched at Blade 23:58:51
Event Mk-82 launched at Blade 23:58:51
Event AIM-120C-4 launched at Blade 23:58:54
Event Mk-82 launched at Blade 23:58:58
Event Mk-82 launched at Blade 23:58:58
Event Mk-82 launched at Blade 23:58:59
Event Mk-82 launched at Blade 23:58:59
Event Mk-82 launched at Blade 23:59:02
Event Mk-82 launched at Blade 23:59:02
Event Mk-82 launched at Blade 23:59:02
Event Mk-82 launched at Blade 23:59:02
Event AIM-9M launched at Blade 23:59:13
Event Blade ejected at 23:59:31
Event Blade exited from Lobo12 at 00:12:30
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PILOT SLOT 1:
Human Player: Stevie
Callsign: stevie
Pilot status - RESCUED
Aircraft status - DESTROYED
AA Kills 1
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 3
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 6
Fired 2
Missed 0
Hit 2
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 23:42:24 hit F-16C-50 CCIP - damaged
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 23:55:52 hit MB339* - destroyed
LOADOUT 2: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
-------------
PILOT SLOT 2:
Human Player: Capt. Blade
Callsign: Blade
Pilot status - RESCUED
Aircraft status - DESTROYED
AA Kills 0
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 16
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 6
Fired 1
Missed 1
Hit 0
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 23:56:21 miss
LOADOUT 2: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
stevie
ps. great work dodging all does mk82's Blade :)
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| Homer |
Posted - 10 May 2010 : 07:42:03
I was lead on one of the CAP flights, Cowboy1, but didn't last too long. Climbed to Angels 40 on AWACS request, intercepted a long range flight of inbound F-16 and got off a couple AMRAAM before the inbound M symbol appeared on the RWR. At Angels 40, with 280kts indicated, I barely had time to blow the tanks and try to manouver before it was game over. Didn't fancy 20 minutes in the chute, so backed out.
Sorry I cannot offer more to the synopsis - is it possible to defeat two incoming slammers at 40K? |
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| 185th VFS |
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