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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Vosene |
Posted - 11 Apr 2010 : 21:51:43
Members who flew as a Flight Lead in the Sunday mission, "Air Pistols Teaser", are requested to post a debrief by Tuesday evening.
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| 7 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Vosene |
Posted - 13 Apr 2010 : 01:01:39
Traditionally hitting the TOT is not something the 185th VFS has been very good at and way the Falcon TE builder is setup makes it difficult to build in large margins of time. With a ramp start, perhaps the answer is not to allow aircraft beyond the FLOT before a certain time rather than not allowing take-offs. This would allow packages to form up before pushing and sill be closer to the TOT.
Flying against other humans is very different than against the AI, they are much more unpredictable and it will obviously take some time to adopt to this change and to ensure the missions are balanced but I'm glad this TE has got so many people thinking about things.
Thanks to everyone for flying on Sunday and especially to Tiag for putting the mission together, enjoyed it and looking forward to more FoF.
Don't forget we'll also be flying some FoF missions with other Sqns. Keep an eye on the forums for details.
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| Ballistic |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 23:13:09
Seems completely stupid to have the Strike Lead as the Package Commander in any TE - he's usually the last to take off with the least SA; certainly A-G if not carrying HARMs to pick up threat circles - is this normal military practice as it seems a bit insane?
Blue must ignore time on target and simply fly the opposite direction to the Red and wait until all flights are airbourne in the safe zone then proceed forward with the mission I guess. In the real world the in flight time would have been longer with time for this, unless it was a scrammble -obviously we have limited time but I would have thought this time needed to be considered bearing in mind a ramp start was included.
As for the route, well without knowing all the SAM threats before take off it will pretty much depend on what pops up.
Just my thoughts as the Escort number 4 who thought the planning was pretty sound at the time - I guess we all presumed a bit too much and will think a bit more next time - I just hope we can fit it into a sensible time frame.
Nice Idea and we have to walk before we can run I guess. |
| tiag |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 20:51:24
Aggressors Debriefing
Aircraft: SU-33SM
Loadout: 6x R-77 + 2xR-73
#1 Snakebite
#2 Focus
#3 tiag
#4 Raptor
Vosene as AWACS
Training:
Several tactical approaches were tested to deal with the numeric inferiority of the RED FORCES. We had in total 4X-SU33 (humans) and 4 MIG-29SM, giving a total of 8acftx6R-77s=42 R-77s. The MIG-21s were Fox 2 only. In total there were 16xF-16, which gave in total 76 Slammers.
In total the aggressors flew 5 scenarios trying to block the attack. We noticed that if the SEAD and the Escort work together, it was very hard to stop the package. 3 of 5 times the AI managed to hit our simulated target area.
In order to minimize any bias from me and Vosene, Snakebite was the flight lead.
Plan:
Since the general target area was "announced" for the RED team, but the route was unknown (and free for the BLUE team), we decided to set a DCA close to a SA-4/SA-6 pair and try to figure out which route the BLUE team would take. We planned to defend the target area based in two elements working independently. The first element would try to slow down the BLUE package, while the second element would attack from the flanks. This plan was based on the way the 185th usually flies: As soon the Escort engages an enemy flight the whole package stops and wait. We saw an opportunity there by flanking the escort with one element and try to attack the SEAD flight or, with luck, the Strike package. The whole flaking maneuver would be performed with radar and jammer off to avoid detection. See a sketch below.
In general we would fly A40, Mach 1+ and abort at 25nm. Cold leg at A28. And trying to minimize contrails by zoom climbing.
Action Report:
We took off as fraged and headed to our chosen CAP area. The SU-33 has a superb radar, and we could detect all F-16s jamming or not out of 80nm+. 30nm before the first STP of our CAP, the AWACS started calling F-16s north of the flot. #1 and #2 forgot to zoom climb and engaged the F-16s from A28. F-16s were at A36+. In total 3 slammers were shot at them, #2 (Focus) was shot down in this first engagement (believe by BB). #3 and #4 were trailing 20nm the first element. #3 and #4 zoom climbed as fragged and got the contacts south of the SA-6/SA-4 units. #3 engaged one F-16, missile missed. #4 was not able to shoot because his target went cold. #3 and #4 executed the BVR attack plan as fragged, and as instructed by the AWACS, turned on the radar/jammer at 22nm from an F-16 beaming east/west. #3 destroyed the F-16 with a R-77. #4 was unable to shoot a missile because he was lagging behind in the formation. #3 and #4 then aborted and headed north. I think we shot down one SEAD F-16 here.
#1 continued as fragged but missiles missed. #3 and #4 went hot for the last time, and #4 shot down one F-16 at A16, probably AI.
Questions:
1) Why the SEAD flight moved north if the ESCORT flight was not giving support to it?
2) When the Escort and SEAD attacked, the Strike flight was still on the ground, 60nm away. Why the package did not form up before moving north?
3) Why the "strike package" did not choose another route? Why to attack the MIG-29s if there were a lot of space to ingress into the enemy territory?
Remarks regarding the Aggressors:
1) The BVR attack scheme worked out as planned. The F-16s were taken by surprise, I believe, by seeing our radars/jammers suddenly. If the #4 were in position we would have probably destroyed two F-16s.
2) The SU-33SM is a great machine, which beats the F-16 in almost all aspects. However, if the F-16 has altitude advantage (as between Focus and BB engagement), the superior performance of the SU-33 does not help at all.
3) Comms in aggressors was not good, as Vosene noticed. Point to improve.
Remarks regarding the Blue Forces (from my point of view):
1) By attacking individually, the SEAD, and later, the Escort threw away their advantage: human piloted F-16s operating together. The Mission Package Commander should have organized the package better before going into combat.
2) As far as I understood, Stevie was the package commander?! Stevie did a great training as cadet and is an excelent stick&rudder pilot, but he still lacks experience on leading such packages. I would in the future choose more experienced flight leads for such tasks.
Hopefully we can all improve our skills in the future. I enjoyed flying this TE, although I was surprised by the tactical choices of the BLUE side.
Event Focus joined as Dragnet12 at 16:47:15
Event SnakeBite joined as Dragnet11 at 16:47:16
Event tiag joined as Dragnet13 at 16:47:16
Event Raptor joined as Dragnet14 at 16:47:20
Event AIM-120C-4 launched at SnakeBite 17:18:58
Event AIM-120C-4 launched at SnakeBite 17:19:40
Event AIM-120C-4 launched at Focus 17:19:49
Event Focus ejected at 17:20:45
Event AIM-120C-4 launched at tiag 17:28:05
Event U.S. F-16C-52 CCIP downed by tiag at 17:29:01
Event U.S. F-16C-52 CCIP downed by Raptor at 17:45:33
Event tiag landed at 17:52:59
Event Raptor landed at 17:53:03
Event SnakeBite landed at 17:54:06
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| Stevie |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 09:05:48
Deepstrike Cowboy 1
Cowboy11 - stevie
Cowboy13/14 - mango
We had some issues getting the flight up. The Cowboy12 (AI) stayed stationary preventing 13 to takeoff. The escort flight was already engaged when Mango and myself had to backout and wait for the AI to leave the airfield itself. I jumped back in and watched the flight takeoff. Mango jumped back in too, but the plane crashed during his loading time. Mango switched to 14. I wanted to hold position untill the sky was save to continue. I didn't want to waste planes, mainly because it was just mango and me (and one ai). When I heared that the sead and escort where nearly dead i called RTB for cowboy. Survivability was close to zero.
Allthough cowboy flight did not go any further then stpt 2 we enjoyed the evening and are looking forward for the next flight.
stevie
(ps debrief to follow)
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| tiag |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 08:23:29
Griffin, can you please post your debrief too? Thanks.
Tiag
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| Griffin |
Posted - 11 Apr 2010 : 22:21:41
SEAD Escort - Falcon 1
11 - Griffin
12 - BigBrother
13 - Floyd
Took off and formed up. Heading for SP3 we noted that jamming contacts were 60 miles away. While watching that 3 x SA-6, 1 x SA-4 and 1 x SA-10 popped up. BB went in to take out the SA-6 west of the flight path which would have allowed us to attack the SA-10 and ignore the rest. Unfortunately the Mig 29SMs and the very hot Su33's had other ideas. Fury 1 were too far behind in the early stages and we lost BB very early on. The flanking Flankers also took care of me and Floyd. Mission over.
Mission name: 185th AP Teaser 1 2
Mission Type: SEAD Escort
Flight Callsign: Falcon1
4 Ship Flight
Ac type: F-16C-52 CCIP
Country: U.S.
FLIGHT EVENTS
Event Griffin joined as Falcon12 at 16:45:36
Event DPRK StraightFlush destroyed by BigBrother at 17:17:51
Event R-27TE launched at BigBrother 17:19:36
Event BigBrother exited from Falcon11 at 17:20:31
Event DPRK MiG-29SM downed by Falcon14 at 17:22:02
Event R-77 launched at Floyd 17:27:43
Event R-77 launched at Griffin 17:28:00
Event Floyd ejected at 17:28:42
Event Griffin ejected at 17:28:46
Event Floyd exited from Falcon13 at 17:29:06
Event Falcon14 ejected at 17:29:44
Event Griffin exited from Falcon12 at 17:30:27
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PILOT SLOT 1:
AI Player: Col. Agne
Callsign: Falcon11
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 0
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 0
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 4
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 2: AGM-88C
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 4: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
-------------
PILOT SLOT 2:
Human Player: Capt. Griffin
Callsign: Griffin
Pilot status - RESCUED
Aircraft status - DESTROYED
AA Kills 0
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 1
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 4
Fired 3
Missed 3
Hit 0
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:18:58 miss
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:25:57 miss
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:28:05 miss
LOADOUT 2: AGM-88C
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 4: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
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PILOT SLOT 3:
Human Player: Maj. Floyd
Callsign: Floyd
Pilot status - RESCUED
Aircraft status - DESTROYED
AA Kills 0
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 1
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 4
Fired 2
Missed 1
Hit 1
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:27:26 miss
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:27:55 hit MiG-21-93 - damaged
LOADOUT 2: AGM-88C
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 4: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
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PILOT SLOT 4:
Human Player: Capt. BigBrother
Callsign: BigBrother
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - DAMAGED
AA Kills 0
AG Kills 1
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 1
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 4
Fired 2
Missed 2
Hit 0
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:19:40 miss
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:19:49 miss
LOADOUT 2: AGM-88C
Starting Load 2
Fired 1
Missed 0
Hit 1
Event AGM-88C released at 17:16:08 hit StraightFlush - destroyed
LOADOUT 3: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 4: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
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| Blade |
Posted - 11 Apr 2010 : 21:58:12
Fury 1 - Escort
Fury 11 - Blade
Fury 12 - Medic
Fury 13 - Dmans
Fury 14 - Ballistic
Fury 11, 13, 14: 6 AIM-120C4, 2 bags, 1 ALQ-131
Fury 12: 6 AIM-120B, 2 bags, 1 ALQ-131
Fury flight took off in a 2x 2-ship formation after giving way to the AI Falcon 14. Falcon 1 was already very busy Air to Air-wise. Fury was unable to provide support fast enough to save Falcon which was subsequently shot down. Fury flight was next, only Dmans made it RTB. Several enemies got shot down, 2x Mig-29SM by Medic, 1x Mig-21-93 each by Dmans and Ballistic. Blade was only able to damage a Mig-29SM :(.
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RECORD BEGIN TIMESTAMP 4/11/2010 22:38:12.
Game is Tactical Engagement type Networked
Mission name: 185th AP Teaser 1
Mission Type: Escort
Flight Callsign: Fury1
4 Ship Flight
Ac type: F-16C-52 CCIP
Country: U.S.
FLIGHT EVENTS
Event Blade joined as Fury11 at 16:47:09
Event Dmans1 joined as Fury13 at 16:47:15
Event Medic joined as Fury12 at 16:47:17
Event Ballistic joined as Fury14 at 16:47:27
Event DPRK MiG-29SM downed by Medic at 17:24:58
Event R-77 launched at Ballistic 17:25:36
Event R-77 launched at Dmans1 17:25:42
Event DPRK MiG-21-93 downed by Dmans1 at 17:26:33
Event R-73 Mod 1 launched at Medic 17:26:37
Event R-27TE launched at Medic 17:26:50
Event R-27TE launched at Blade 17:26:59
Event R-73 Mod 1 launched at Medic 17:27:00
Event Medic downed by DPRK MiG-29SM at 17:27:34
Event Medic exited from Fury12 at 17:27:37
Event Blade ejected at 17:27:47
Event DPRK MiG-29SM downed by Medic at 17:27:47
Event DPRK MiG-21-93 downed by Ballistic at 17:28:26
Event R-77 launched at Ballistic 17:28:42
Event Ballistic ejected at 17:29:09
Event R-77 launched at Dmans1 17:31:06
Event Dmans1 landed at 17:39:44
Event Dmans1 landed at 17:39:44
Event Dmans1 landed at 17:39:45
Event Blade exited from Fury11 at 17:40:58
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PILOT SLOT 1:
Human Player: Lt. Blade
Callsign: Blade
Pilot status - RESCUED
Aircraft status - DESTROYED
AA Kills 0
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 1
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 6
Fired 2
Missed 1
Hit 1
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:24:25 miss
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:27:16 hit MiG-29SM - damaged
LOADOUT 2: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
-------------
PILOT SLOT 2:
Human Player: Lt. Medic
Callsign: Medic
Pilot status - KIA
Aircraft status - DESTROYED
AA Kills 2
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 3
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120B
Starting Load 6
Fired 2
Missed 0
Hit 2
Event AIM-120B released at 17:24:11 hit MiG-29SM - destroyed
Event AIM-120B released at 17:26:53 hit MiG-29SM - destroyed
LOADOUT 2: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
-------------
PILOT SLOT 3:
Human Player: Dmans1
Callsign: Dmans1
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 1
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 2
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 6
Fired 1
Missed 0
Hit 1
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:25:40 hit MiG-21-93 - destroyed
LOADOUT 2: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
-------------
PILOT SLOT 4:
Human Player: Ballistic
Callsign: Ballistic
Pilot status - RESCUED
Aircraft status - DESTROYED
AA Kills 1
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 2
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 6
Fired 2
Missed 1
Hit 1
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:26:19 miss
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 17:28:10 hit MiG-21-93 - destroyed
LOADOUT 2: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0 |
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| 185th VFS |
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