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| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Vosene |
Posted - 03 Jan 2010 : 22:13:06
Members who flew as a Flight Lead in the Sunday mission, Pump 'em Dry, are requested to post a debrief by Tuesday evening.
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| 5 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Theron |
Posted - 06 Jan 2010 : 00:50:25
ok..
basically there were a few habits in the 185th that this mission was designed to exploit.
1. the most important one was all the low level flying without conequence. it seems that quite a few of you found this out. you cant go around flying low level, you never know whats under you until you are in the chute.
2. people like to fly around/ kill easily with harms any active sams, there is no real skill to this and i felt that forcing you to fly into such threats would bring such a basic skill back to the forefront.
3. on a related note i wanted people to learn how to deal with the EWS. I feel like im the only one in the squadron who uses it and its actually quite invaluable. especially when it comes to being efficient with chaff/flares in a mission where you should expect to be shot at by SAM's many more times than the pre-sets cater for.
4. refueling. not allowed to be compulsory for missions, which is a shame. but depending on how you used afterburner to evade missiles you might have had to do some mid-air refueling. another basic skill as far as I'm concerned.
5. team work. the 2 flights were to work together with common tools against common targets and accept surprises as a team).
6. bombing targets that you don't have co-ordinates for.
so, from the briefing the key points were...
* stay above 15,000 feet (sa13 launches mentioned in the sam launch debrief sample -NB: "Note; this is what you NEED to know, not what you want to.")
* Use the 6 light aircraft to distract the SAMs while the heavier seize their best opportunities. ("Command recommends that lighter aircraft are used to distract the SAMs and even make them run out of ammunition to clear the way for the designated A-G aircraft in the flight to make his attack run.")
* large number of enemy aircraft around ("We know they also have a strong air force which is thought to be very active at this time. The air force consists of mig-21, -23, -25, -27, -29, -31 and A-50. They have at least 4 active airbases at this time.")
How it should have gone...
Both flights take off and fly to steerpoint 3, 2 groups of three (the 6 light a/c) infront of 1 group of 2 (the 2 heavy a/c).
SA3 is prioritised over SA5 because, despite being a smaller threat circle, its much more lethal.
3 light aircraft from one group (flight1) engage a-a with the other flight (flight2) supporting, clearing the immediate air threat over the SA3. the two heavy a/c (flight3) loiter south, away from trouble until cleared in by flights1+2.
flight3 is called forward and orbits the SA3, waiting for an opportunity to arise while either flight1 or 2 wear it down, with the other providing air cover.
do this all the way along the flight plan (refueling as necessary), leaving the mobile sams alone if possible and then take out the SA5s. finally come back for the mobile sams.
this was my specific train of thought, but to put it more generally, keep the flights together and work together, one group of 3/4 supporting, the other(s) engaging. swapping roles as required.
Basically, what I'm saying is that Black flight pretty much nailed it, they just needed to stay above 15,000 feet. and would probably have got a mission success, despite initially aiming just for a partial success.
Please give me feed back on what you thought of this mission guys (thanks to those of you who have already), because i do intend to produce something similar, probably easier.
__________________________________________
 Theron |
| Sabre |
Posted - 05 Jan 2010 : 19:50:06
A very different and refreshing approach to the TE, deceptively simple in principle and difficult to execute in practice. Perhaps too much air to air whilst trying to evade multiple SAMs.
Sabre was here |
| Ballistic |
Posted - 05 Jan 2010 : 19:18:16
Mission Type: Sweep
Flight Callsign: Falcon1
4 Ship Flight
Ac type: F-16C-40
Country: U.S.
FLIGHT EVENTS
Event Cobra joined as Falcon11 at 04:16:09
Event 185mango joined as Falcon14 at 04:16:12
Event Ballistic joined as Falcon13 at 04:16:16
Event Cobra violated ATC protocol at 04:21:23
Event Cobra violated ATC protocol at 04:21:38
Event Cobra violated ATC protocol at 04:21:44
Event Ballistic violated ATC protocol at 04:22:41
Event 185mango violated ATC protocol at 04:22:51
Event Ballistic violated ATC protocol at 04:22:56
Event Ballistic violated ATC protocol at 04:23:02
Event 185mango violated ATC protocol at 04:23:07
Event 185mango violated ATC protocol at 04:23:07
Event DPRK MiG-31 downed by Falcon12 at 04:36:07
Event DPRK MiG-31 downed by Cobra at 04:36:14
Event SA3 launched at Cobra 04:42:11
Event SA5 launched at Ballistic 04:42:34
Event SA3 launched at Cobra 04:42:56
Event SA3 launched at Cobra 04:42:58
Event SA3 launched at Ballistic 04:45:50
Event SA3 launched at Ballistic 04:45:53
Event SA3 launched at Ballistic 04:47:43
Event SA3 launched at Ballistic 04:47:46
Event SA13 launched at 185mango 04:48:30
Event SA13 launched at 185mango 04:48:31
Event SA13 launched at 185mango 04:48:33
Event SA7 launched at 185mango 04:48:33
Event SA14 launched at 185mango 04:48:33
Event DPRK SA-7 destroyed by 185mango at 04:48:39
Event 185mango exited from Falcon14 at 04:49:27
Event DPRK MiG-23MF downed by Cobra at 04:50:16
Event Falcon12 ejected at 04:50:44
Event SA3 launched at Ballistic 04:51:51
Event DPRK MiG-25R* downed by Ballistic at 04:56:21
Event SA3 launched at Ballistic 04:58:11
Event SA3 launched at Ballistic 04:58:15
Event SA7 launched at Cobra 05:01:02
Event SA14 launched at Cobra 05:01:04
Event SA3 launched at Cobra 05:02:23
Event SA3 launched at Cobra 05:02:31
Event SA4 launched at Ballistic 05:03:46
Event SA13 launched at Cobra 05:04:18
Event SA13 launched at Cobra 05:04:21
Event HN5A launched at Cobra 05:04:23
Event R-27R launched at Ballistic 05:05:53
Event R-27R launched at Ballistic 05:05:56
Event Cobra exited from Falcon11 at 05:06:09
Event DPRK MiG-29A downed by Ballistic at 05:11:29
Event DPRK MiG-29A downed by Ballistic at 05:12:13
Event Ballistic violated ATC protocol at 05:27:08
Event Ballistic landed at 05:28:16
Event Ballistic landed at 05:28:18
Event Ballistic exited from Falcon13 at 05:32:33
After failing to hit the SA3 radar with LGB and it being suicidal to try again Falcon Flight attempted low level attacks by the fighters with guns, without success and the loss of 2 AC. #3 was forced to drop remaining LGBs and evade/attack Mig 29s and then run for home from Mig 23's whilst low on fuel.
A Challenging mission I think Theron and one we can learn from. |
| Novac |
Posted - 05 Jan 2010 : 13:03:06
Falcon1
#1 Novac
#2 BigBrother
#3 Griffin
#4 AI
Plan,
As noted by Tiag.
1st events.
Mig 21's engaged by Cowboy flight.
Falcon flight then loitered around sp3 providing air cover.
Directed by AWACS (Lumper) to a pair of mig 31's. With #1 & #2 each getting a kill.
4 ship mig 23mf engaged by Cowboy flight with 1 mig23 killed by Falcon 1
Shortly after, got the call from Cowboy that SA3 & SA5 were destroyed.
Falcon flight then flew to the SA2 site where a pair of mig27's were flying. Normally we would not have engaged the 27's but as #3 was going to be flying low level over the area we engaged them. #1 & 2 getting a kill each.
As #3 was starting his attack run on the SA2.
A 4 ship mig29 flight was picked up. Or was it 2 flights of 4? I don't know.
This is where the coms became very difficult. To be honest I was overloaded. Too busy trying to stay alive than hear or respond to calls.
During this #3 attacked and destroyed the SA2 despite being shot at by 3x sa13's and an HN5a. Unfortunately he was shot down by an sa13.
After #3 was shot down I made a bad choice by deciding to go and attack the SA5 with guns. Only to be hit by an SA13 or 14.
If we had RTB'd after #3 was lost we could have potentially got 4 out of 6 humans back home. (The benefits of hind site  )
Next BigBrother pulled of one of the greatest escapes. He was winchester and chased almost to home plate by a pair of Mig31's. And by chased, I mean they were within guns range.
I think the Cowboy AI helped out with one of those.
I found it a very difficult mission to try to achieve even a partial success by being limited to GBU's. Not my choice of weapon for a low level attack. I would have preferred to use CBU's or even BSU's
Never the less it was the same for all flights.
Thanks for the flight Theron. What was your idea as to how the flight should have been flown?
Mission name: Pump em Dry 2
Mission Type: Sweep
Flight Callsign: Falcon1
4 Ship Flight
Ac type: F-16C-40
Country: U.S.
FLIGHT EVENTS
Event Griffin joined as Falcon13 at 04:16:13
Event BigBrother joined as Falcon12 at 04:16:14
Event Novac joined as Falcon11 at 04:16:18
Event R-27RE launched at BigBrother 04:33:23
Event R-27RE launched at Novac 04:33:24
Event DPRK MiG-31 downed by Novac at 04:34:26
Event DPRK MiG-31 downed by BigBrother at 04:34:36
Event R-23R launched at Novac 04:44:02
Event DPRK MiG-23MF downed by Novac at 04:44:13
Event SA2 launched at Novac 04:53:57
Event DPRK MiG-27M* downed by Novac at 04:54:50
Event SA2 launched at BigBrother 04:55:46
Event SA2 launched at BigBrother 04:55:50
Event DPRK MiG-27M* downed by BigBrother at 04:56:06
Event R-27R launched at Novac 04:56:45
Event DPRK MiG-29A downed by Novac at 04:57:28
Event SA2 launched at BigBrother 04:57:30
Event R-27R launched at BigBrother 04:57:34
Event SA2 launched at BigBrother 04:57:36
Event R-27R launched at Griffin 04:57:57
Event DPRK MiG-29A downed by BigBrother at 04:58:06
Event DPRK MiG-29A downed by BigBrother at 04:58:20
Event SA2 launched at BigBrother 04:58:45
Event SA2 launched at BigBrother 04:58:55
Event SA13 launched at Griffin 05:02:09
Event SA13 launched at Griffin 05:02:11
Event SA13 launched at Griffin 05:02:12
Event HN5A launched at Griffin 05:02:14
Event Griffin downed by DPRK SA-13 at 05:02:19
Event DPRK Fan Song B destroyed by Griffin at 05:02:22
Event R-27R launched at Novac 05:02:35
Event DPRK MiG-29A downed by Novac at 05:03:32
Event DPRK MiG-29A downed by BigBrother at 05:05:14
Event DPRK MiG-29A downed by BigBrother at 05:06:44
Event SA14 launched at Novac 05:10:02
Event SA7 launched at Novac 05:10:03
Event Novac crashed at 05:10:07
Event DPRK ZIL-135 destroyed by Novac at 05:10:07
Event Novac exited from Falcon11 at 05:10:49
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PILOT SLOT 1:
Human Player: Maj. Novac
Callsign: Novac
Pilot status - KIA
Aircraft status - DESTROYED
AA Kills 5
AG Kills 1
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 7
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 1
Missed 0
Hit 1
Event 20mm M61 fired at 05:10:05 hit KrAz T 255B - damaged
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 6
Fired 6
Missed 1
Hit 5
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 04:33:26 hit MiG-31 - destroyed
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 04:43:04 hit MiG-23MF - destroyed
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 04:44:01 miss
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 04:53:40 hit MiG-27M* - destroyed
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 04:56:24 hit MiG-29A - destroyed
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 05:02:23 hit MiG-29A - destroyed
LOADOUT 2: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
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PILOT SLOT 2:
Human Player: BigBrother
Callsign: BigBrother
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 6
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 8
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 2
Missed 2
Hit 0
Event 20mm M61 fired at 05:09:26 miss
Event 20mm M61 fired at 05:09:28 miss
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 6
Fired 6
Missed 0
Hit 6
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 04:33:36 hit MiG-31 - destroyed
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 04:55:24 hit MiG-27M* - destroyed
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 04:57:23 hit MiG-29A - destroyed
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 04:57:35 hit MiG-29A - destroyed
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 05:03:52 hit MiG-29A - destroyed
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 05:05:39 hit MiG-29A - destroyed
LOADOUT 2: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
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PILOT SLOT 3:
Human Player: Griffin
Callsign: Griffin
Pilot status - KIA
Aircraft status - DESTROYED
AA Kills 0
AG Kills 1
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 5
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 4
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 2: GBU-22/B
Starting Load 4
Fired 1
Missed 0
Hit 1
Event GBU-22/B released at 05:02:14 hit Fan Song B - destroyed
LOADOUT 3: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 4: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
-------------
PILOT SLOT 4:
AI Player: Lt. Marshall
Callsign: Falcon14
Pilot status - OK
Aircraft status - OK
AA Kills 0
AG Kills 0
AS Kills 0
AN Kills 0
Shoot At 0
Other Player Kills 0
WEAPON DATA
LOADOUT 0: 20mm M61
Starting Load 510
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 1: AIM-120C-4
Starting Load 6
Fired 2
Missed 2
Hit 0
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 04:56:33 miss
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 05:02:48 miss
LOADOUT 2: 370 Gal Tank
Starting Load 2
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
LOADOUT 3: ALQ-131
Starting Load 1
Fired 0
Missed 0
Hit 0
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| tiag |
Posted - 05 Jan 2010 : 10:04:25
Cowboy Flight
1-Tiag
2-Vosene
3-Floyd
4-Mr.AI
A-A weapons changed to slammers only. A-G loadout was fixed.
PLAN:
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We decided to go for the partial success: just non-mobile SAM sites would be attacked.
1+2 would fly Sweep for 3+4.
During the attack run of #3, #1+2 would play the bait by flying into the SA-3 and SA-5 envelope, while #3 would kill the sites.
During these engagements, Falcon flight would stand-by and support us in A-A if necessary.
When we finished the first two SAM sites, we would support Falcon flight on his task.
EXECUTION:
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#1+2 attacked and destroyed MIG-21s and 23s. SA-5 was very active and made several shots on us, specially at #2, who was defensive almost the whole time. It is the only situation in AF when I feel heart pumping: a tracking radar on you, RWR screaming and a MACH3+ flying towards with several pounds of explosive.
After the first target area was clear, #3 striked the SA-3 succesfully, while #1+2 were playing the bait. Even so, the SA-3 still managed to make two shots on #3 in the last seconds, but the Barlock-B was destroyed before the missiles could do any harm.
After some seconds trying to get the AA picture again, we started our attack run on the SA-5. #1 was defensive on a SA-5, while #2 and #3 pressed against the target area. #3 managed to loft a bomb on tracking radar, but was hit, probably by an SA-13.
After that we headed to the last two SAM sites (SA-5 and SA-2) to support Falcon flight. Novac, will debrief in detail, but Griffin was hit in his attack run against the SA-2 (radar was destroyed). #1 was winchester after shooting down a MIG-25R, while #2 still had two radars.
After struggling to coordinate the A-A engagements with Falcon flight, #2 was being chased by a MIG-29A. After a short-range exchange of missiles (R-27R vs AIM-120C4), both #2 and MIG-29 were hit:
Event AIM-120C-4 released at 05:06:57
Event R-27R launched at Vosene 05:07:13
Event DPRK MiG-29A downed by Vosene at 05:07:44
Event Vosene ejected at 05:07:50
#1 RTBed alone, while #4 was shooting down a MIG-31.
IMPORTANT COMMENTS/CONCLUSIONS (from our online debrief):
--------------------------------------------------------
1) Very poor coordination between the flights in the A-A engagements. Each flight should in the future make a broadcast call with the following info:
a)WHAT (type and #s) and WHERE (bullseye/stp/alt) is being engaged.
b)When all enemy acft are down.
2) AWACS should be ALWAYS on broadcasting to keep all flights in picture. Go to individual channels just if really, really necessary.
3) The decision to carry on the mission with all #3s in both flights killed was wrong. There was no point of doing that...too many MIG-29s.
4) We in the Black Flight had an exchange ratio of about 4.75:1 (or 19:1 taking in account just the A-A action). This is an excelent exchange ratio! So, from ths point of view, the mission was a success. In very few real air battles, there has been so high ratios. In Operation Bolo during Vietnam, the USAF managed to shoot down 9 MIGs without losses. The IDF also had some very good kill ratios against the Egypt and Siria in the opening days of the 6 Day War.
Event Vosene joined as Cowboy12 at 04:14:11
Event Floyd joined as Cowboy13 at 04:14:11
Event tiag joined as Cowboy11 at 04:14:12
Event SA5 launched at tiag 04:27:17
Event DPRK MiG-21Mbis downed by Vosene at 04:29:26
Event SA5 launched at Vosene 04:29:29
Event DPRK MiG-21Mbis downed by Vosene at 04:29:52
Event R-13R launched at tiag 04:30:24
Event DPRK MiG-21Mbis downed by tiag at 04:30:46
Event SA5 launched at Vosene 04:33:04
Event SA5 launched at Vosene 04:39:19
Event SA3 launched at Vosene 04:40:02
Event SA5 launched at tiag 04:40:27
Event SA5 launched at Vosene 04:41:19
Event SA3 launched at Floyd 04:41:51
Event SA3 launched at Floyd 04:41:53
Event DPRK Low Blow destroyed by Floyd at 04:42:24
Event R-23R launched at tiag 04:42:51
Event R-23R launched at tiag 04:43:37
Event DPRK MiG-23MF downed by tiag at 04:43:48
Event DPRK MiG-23MF downed by tiag at 04:43:52
Event SA5 launched at Vosene 04:44:14
Event DPRK MiG-23MF downed by tiag at 04:44:22
Event SA5 launched at tiag 04:46:34
Event SA13 launched at Floyd 04:49:33
Event SA14 launched at Floyd 04:49:34
Event DPRK Barlock-B destroyed by Floyd at 04:49:42
Event Floyd ejected at 04:49:47
Event Floyd exited from Cowboy13 at 04:51:19
Event DPRK MiG-25R* downed by tiag at 04:55:47
Event SA4 launched at tiag 04:56:42
Event SA4 launched at tiag 04:56:54
Event SA4 launched at tiag 04:56:59
Event SA4 launched at tiag 04:57:07
Event SA4 launched at tiag 04:57:17
Event SA4 launched at tiag 04:57:23
Event R-27R launched at Vosene 05:07:13
Event DPRK MiG-29A downed by Vosene at 05:07:44
Event Vosene ejected at 05:07:50
Event Vosene exited from Cowboy12 at 05:14:55
Event tiag landed at 05:17:33
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